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What do you think will come after Puma

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What do you think will come after Puma

Old 3rd Jun 2017, 15:12
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Dundiggin' View Post
Just this once....
I agree with most of your points but if you fill the Blackhawk cabin with troops there is virtually NO room to work the USL hook.
Very true but a full load of troops and an USL is far from routine.

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Old 3rd Jun 2017, 23:16
  #62 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by minigundiplomat View Post
If its a pure urban role, then Little Birds. If its a stepped back capability from the CH47, then how about the Bell 525?
Let's allow the hard working folks at Bell to first sort out their rotor head (etc) before we get ahead of ourselves. There is a thread over on Rotorheads regarding the 525 that may interest you.
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Old 4th Jun 2017, 09:45
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by T28B View Post
Let's allow the hard working folks at Bell to first sort out their rotor head (etc) before we get ahead of ourselves. There is a thread over on Rotorheads regarding the 525 that may interest you.
Bell have not made any public statements relating to military use, and their website reflects that : http://www.bellhelicopter.com/en/commercial/bell-525/
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Old 4th Jun 2017, 12:15
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tucumseh View Post

I'm happy to say Westland never once let me down, and can think of quite a few examples of MoD awarding contracts to others, only for Westland to dig us/them out. Puma Nav Update in the 90s was one.
Many years ago, weren't Westland supposed to be tooled up to produce Blackhawks for the european market? I certainly remember a RR engined version in and out of Farnborough after the airshow one year which was supposed to be the 'European' development aircraft.
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Old 4th Jun 2017, 14:32
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Martin the Martian View Post
I agree that Puma HC.2 will be around for some time after 2025, and have no doubt that its replacement will be wrapped up along with a Merlin HC.4 replacement. As to what it will be, well now, there's the question.
Yes, that literally was the question.
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Old 4th Jun 2017, 16:38
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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To which the answer is likely "no one knows yet, we will probably try extend out to see what happens with the US Future Vertical Lift program". We will probably therefore also be left speculating for the next decade.
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Old 5th Jun 2017, 02:50
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Dundiggin' View Post
Just this once....
I agree with most of your points but if you fill the Blackhawk cabin with troops there is virtually NO room to work the USL hook.

Please do explain would you....I am dying to hear this explanation.
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Old 5th Jun 2017, 16:08
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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SASless. I think you will find this point is all about the different ways our crewmen operate to your cabin crew gunner/crewchief. In the Wessex/Puma/Chinook/Merlin our crewmen were and are responsible for the control and safe passage of underslung loads. The crewman monitors the hookup, transit and release, voice marshalling the aircraft for pickup and drop off to ensure the load is stable and positioned correctly. With the Blackhawk seats in the transverse position the crewman cannot see beneath the aircraft to carry out this task nor move around the cabin to reach the door and manage either troops and doors.
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Old 5th Jun 2017, 16:56
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@Huge: are you suggesting that the US crew chiefs can't use a gunner's belt to monitor the load, or is it that with a full load of seated troops there isn't room to do it the old fashioned way -- slide the door open, lie on one's belly, and keep an eye on the load?


The crewman monitors the hookup, transit and release, voice marshalling the aircraft for pickup and drop off to ensure the load is stable and positioned correctly.
I have worked with Navy (and a few times Army) crewman who do precisely that. External loads is a place where the crew chief shines.
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Old 5th Jun 2017, 17:50
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Can a Blackhawk carry much of an u/s load when full of troops and fuel? Can a Puma?

CG
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Old 5th Jun 2017, 18:28
  #71 (permalink)  
 
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I only flew in the WS70 for a short time but had to make a quick assessment of what I thought of the cabin. My opinion was that the transverse arrangements of the rear seats (WITHOUT troops or Bergens) appeared to leave very little/no space from the front of the seat and the rear of the load hatch on which to walk behind the load hatch in order to see vertically down onto the hook for pick up and drop off. With no troops in the seats the crewman could sit on the seat and 'work' the load from there (luxury!) but with troops and Bergens filling the rear seats you would have to stand straddled over the open hatch in order to 'work' the hook from above. Furthermore, when the doors are opened in order to see movement tendency on drop off or pickup, if you had a cabin full of kit and soldiers IMHO , there was a bloody good chance of losing something or someone out the door. ( I know they should be secure!) The crewman wears a 'gunner's belt' (monkey harness) at all times. The combination of troops (gun crew) not necessarily a cabin FULL of troops, and USL gun was a common load in my experience.

Last edited by Dundiggin'; 5th Jun 2017 at 19:10.
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Old 5th Jun 2017, 18:39
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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DD, that's about the only combo I can recall from the last century! Oh, and APFC and troops before Harry Wallet dropped it!

CG
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Old 6th Jun 2017, 06:40
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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Furthermore, when the doors are opened in order to see movement tendency on drop off or pickup, if you had a cabin full of kit and soldiers IMHO , there was a bloody good chance of losing something or someone out the door.
In the millions of hours flown in the Black Hawk, has this ever happened? Genuine question.
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Old 6th Jun 2017, 09:04
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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DD That's exactly how I remembered it, Transverse seats are a nightmare for a crewman to carryout all that's required of him, which is why our helis always had a clear centre floor if we were doing USLs. In Ireland it was common place to carry troops and USLs at the same time but we were only covering short distances and had plenty of refuel sites to top up with in-between. If you have open doors there is always the possibility of loosing kit no matter what type you are flying on, a fact of life when you cant always secure everything before you get airborne!!
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Old 7th Jun 2017, 22:47
  #75 (permalink)  
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anyone like the look of this design?

https://youtu.be/-xvXTozuGn0

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Old 8th Jun 2017, 18:55
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by The RAF Taff View Post
That video is about nine years old.
X2 has done its flights.
S-97 Raider (a bit bigger, armed scout sized bird) has had some test flights.
Defiant, a larger version, bigger than Blackhawk as I understand it, has not been completed for its first test flight. Though Valor (Bell V-280) is expected to get its first test flight this fall, Defiant is not going to be ready to do that. If they get Defiant off the ground then the real fun begins as the test program goes step by step: can it do what they hope it will do?
Those who know rotor heads tell me that as you scale up in size, you run into some serious design and performance issues with that dual, counter rotating rotor system. (Scaling problems among other things). We'll see if Sikorsky is able to solve those difficult problems or not.
If so, maybe it's in time to meet the 2025 window that appears to be the target.
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Old 19th Jun 2017, 09:39
  #77 (permalink)  
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I am unsure why we are talking about 'if and how' a Crewman can move about; it will only be about money and the logistics will have to fit around the cost. Bye-bye PU, Gz, Wc, Me and hello niche - whatever that is? It will be the cheapest option and for me the Bh is a strong military contender and the 159 a less safe bet due to its non-military credentials.
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Old 19th Jun 2017, 15:17
  #78 (permalink)  
 
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Those who know rotor heads tell me that as you scale up in size, you run into some serious design and performance issues with that dual, counter rotating rotor system. (Scaling problems among other things).
Karmov know more about contra-rotating rotors then anybody and they have never made a big one.
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Old 19th Jun 2017, 16:24
  #79 (permalink)  
 
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Fairly Rotordyne and a shit load of mini guns. Lots of guns.
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Old 19th Jun 2017, 20:00
  #80 (permalink)  
 
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Gnd.....
If the there is not enough room for the Crewman to move safely about the cabin then how can he do his job? I'm exasperated by your response!!
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