What is the PVR rate amongst pilots these days?
BEagle.
I realise I'm not likely to change your mind about any of this so I'm probably wasting my time typing. The problem is that you just keep banging the same old drum and as a guy who retired several years ago you just come across as a curmudgeonly old fool at times I'm afraid.
Times have changed. It is not the Air Force you joined. It's probably not even the Air Force you left. You ask me to offer solutions but maybe I don't have any. You offer none in return. You just keep banging on about the same problems.
I have experienced contractoristion and I have experienced MFTS. What I see is a system that is still upholding the standards that RAF training has always held dear. It is not perfect but then what has ever been perfect in the eyes of everyone?
We could sit and whine about it or just get on with life.
I am a PAS Flt Lt. I don't make policy and never will. What I can do is try to give value to every student I fly with.
I am happy in my own little sphere of operations and that's why I'm in no rush to leave. There are many more like me all over the RAF. Maybe Brize isn't as happy but I'm not going to pretend I know what life is like there.
As much as the giant RAF of yesteryear would have been an amazing place to be, I'm sure, we must also accept that it probably didn't provide great value for money and maybe, dare I say it, didn't provide the best standard of training.
In the modern world every pound of public money spent is scrutinised. You talk on another thread of First Class travel for senior officers. That was common place years ago but not any more. Complaining about things like that just shows that you haven't moved with the times.
To give a work slant on it I used to teach map and stopwatch evasion on a Hawk T1. Now it's all OTMs and Radar trails on the Hawk T2. One is not better than the other. They're just different.
I'll give it a rest now since I will start to go round in circles. I just hope I got my point across.
BV
I realise I'm not likely to change your mind about any of this so I'm probably wasting my time typing. The problem is that you just keep banging the same old drum and as a guy who retired several years ago you just come across as a curmudgeonly old fool at times I'm afraid.
Times have changed. It is not the Air Force you joined. It's probably not even the Air Force you left. You ask me to offer solutions but maybe I don't have any. You offer none in return. You just keep banging on about the same problems.
I have experienced contractoristion and I have experienced MFTS. What I see is a system that is still upholding the standards that RAF training has always held dear. It is not perfect but then what has ever been perfect in the eyes of everyone?
We could sit and whine about it or just get on with life.
I am a PAS Flt Lt. I don't make policy and never will. What I can do is try to give value to every student I fly with.
I am happy in my own little sphere of operations and that's why I'm in no rush to leave. There are many more like me all over the RAF. Maybe Brize isn't as happy but I'm not going to pretend I know what life is like there.
As much as the giant RAF of yesteryear would have been an amazing place to be, I'm sure, we must also accept that it probably didn't provide great value for money and maybe, dare I say it, didn't provide the best standard of training.
In the modern world every pound of public money spent is scrutinised. You talk on another thread of First Class travel for senior officers. That was common place years ago but not any more. Complaining about things like that just shows that you haven't moved with the times.
To give a work slant on it I used to teach map and stopwatch evasion on a Hawk T1. Now it's all OTMs and Radar trails on the Hawk T2. One is not better than the other. They're just different.
I'll give it a rest now since I will start to go round in circles. I just hope I got my point across.
BV
BV, the point isn't so much what clever-clogs training you provide in the Hawk T2 these days, which is no doubt rather different to that which I experienced my Gnat/Hunter time - it's simply that the RAF has shrunk to such an extent that any increase in training capability to cater for the input numbers which might be needed to cope with the reportedly large outflow numbers cannot now be achieved.
There simply aren't the resources, irrespective of the current standards of training.
There simply aren't the resources, irrespective of the current standards of training.
Last edited by BEagle; 20th Oct 2016 at 21:46.
Ascoteer,
Hope you don't mind me asking, but what is it you've heard about the new flying pay offer which is on the cards?
The reason i ask is that I'm one of the guys coming to the end of my 6 year ROS. I can pvr now. I'm trying to work out whether it's worth me staying for the next tour I've been offered.
As a front line multi engine captain I'm on less than 60k. Airlines (inc low cost airlines) are offering 6 figures. The quicker I jump ship, the quicker I'll be on 6 figures. Money talks.
Wakey wakey RAF!!
It also amuses me every time a friend of mine turns down captaincy so as not to have to sign the associated ROS. I dread to think of the state of the RAFin a few years time.
Hope you don't mind me asking, but what is it you've heard about the new flying pay offer which is on the cards?
The reason i ask is that I'm one of the guys coming to the end of my 6 year ROS. I can pvr now. I'm trying to work out whether it's worth me staying for the next tour I've been offered.
As a front line multi engine captain I'm on less than 60k. Airlines (inc low cost airlines) are offering 6 figures. The quicker I jump ship, the quicker I'll be on 6 figures. Money talks.
Wakey wakey RAF!!
It also amuses me every time a friend of mine turns down captaincy so as not to have to sign the associated ROS. I dread to think of the state of the RAFin a few years time.
goldcup, as a ba pilot of some 9+ years, I would caution you against making abusive personal attacks on Internet forums.
The company has a pretty strict social media policy.
The company has a pretty strict social media policy.
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The common thread through all of this is that the RAF, indeed you can include the whole public sector of the NHS, Education, MOD, Civil Service, have suffered the effects of salami-slicing for years and years.
The simple truth is that there is always more "bread" to be spread that "butter" available. The RAF needs more "butter" to do its job but the polititians/Treasury decide the priorities for public spending and the MOD is not getting enough. The 2% of GDP limit, is down on the 3.5% or more typically spent in the past and there is no escape from this reality.
The VSO's in all the Armed Forces are struggling to balance their books notwithstanding the reductions brought on by SDSR 15 but the reality is that no amount of shiny kit, is going to make people stay in the job once they are in a position to PVR/leave unless the PEOPLE concerned are........
1. Paid enough viz a viz civillians in similar jobs;
2. Offered pensions that keep pace with what's available outside;
3. Have decent messing/accommodation at rates that are affordable, and where charges do not exceed any annual pay increases;
4. Where opportunities for career advancement/specialist training are not effectively denied/interrupted because of short-notice postings/detachments and under-manning;
5. Where annual leave is considered a luxury and not an entitlement;
6. Where so-called "perks" such as entitlement to boarding school education allowance, rail warrants and home-to-duty travel are cut/abolished.
7. Where on-station medical services are reduced to little more than that provided by a District Nurse.
8. No recognition is made for the "X" factor that shows itself in a myriad of ways.......a wife's inability to follow her chosen career due to following her husband's (or vice versa if talking about a female). Un-accompanied postings that leave a family without the chief gardener, handy-man/woman, chauffeur of children, etc. that often require such services to be bought-in by paying someone else.
Neglect the above and it is easy to see why retention is a problem across the board, not just in the armed forces, but also in the NHS, Prison Service etc. etc.
One simple test. Would you encourage your children to join even the Air Cadets today? My answer would be to steer mine elsewhere.......
MB out.
The simple truth is that there is always more "bread" to be spread that "butter" available. The RAF needs more "butter" to do its job but the polititians/Treasury decide the priorities for public spending and the MOD is not getting enough. The 2% of GDP limit, is down on the 3.5% or more typically spent in the past and there is no escape from this reality.
The VSO's in all the Armed Forces are struggling to balance their books notwithstanding the reductions brought on by SDSR 15 but the reality is that no amount of shiny kit, is going to make people stay in the job once they are in a position to PVR/leave unless the PEOPLE concerned are........
1. Paid enough viz a viz civillians in similar jobs;
2. Offered pensions that keep pace with what's available outside;
3. Have decent messing/accommodation at rates that are affordable, and where charges do not exceed any annual pay increases;
4. Where opportunities for career advancement/specialist training are not effectively denied/interrupted because of short-notice postings/detachments and under-manning;
5. Where annual leave is considered a luxury and not an entitlement;
6. Where so-called "perks" such as entitlement to boarding school education allowance, rail warrants and home-to-duty travel are cut/abolished.
7. Where on-station medical services are reduced to little more than that provided by a District Nurse.
8. No recognition is made for the "X" factor that shows itself in a myriad of ways.......a wife's inability to follow her chosen career due to following her husband's (or vice versa if talking about a female). Un-accompanied postings that leave a family without the chief gardener, handy-man/woman, chauffeur of children, etc. that often require such services to be bought-in by paying someone else.
Neglect the above and it is easy to see why retention is a problem across the board, not just in the armed forces, but also in the NHS, Prison Service etc. etc.
One simple test. Would you encourage your children to join even the Air Cadets today? My answer would be to steer mine elsewhere.......
MB out.
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goldcup, as a ba pilot of some 9+ years, I would caution you against making abusive personal attacks on Internet forums.
And of course, special snowflake pilots are frankly the least of Defence's worries. Why on earth should you get massively better t&c than the rest of us?
PVR rate....???
2. Offered pensions that keep pace with what's available outside;
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And of course, special snowflake pilots are frankly the least of Defence's worries. Why on earth should you get massively better t&c than the rest of us?
Not sure what a 'special snowflake pilot' is though.....
Why on earth should you get massively better t&c than the rest of us?
CG
Special snowflake?
Goldcup, spot on and merely factual, not abusive in the slightest. As for threatening company policy police on you, highly unlikely and just more evidence of his vindictive and oft spiteful nature.
Whatever people leave for, there'll be a common thread, but in the end it's often the more personal issues that make someone leave; it was for me.
Anyhoooo...MFTS will be the RAF's saviour won't it??
Goldcup, spot on and merely factual, not abusive in the slightest. As for threatening company policy police on you, highly unlikely and just more evidence of his vindictive and oft spiteful nature.
Whatever people leave for, there'll be a common thread, but in the end it's often the more personal issues that make someone leave; it was for me.
Anyhoooo...MFTS will be the RAF's saviour won't it??
After years of flying venerable museum pieces, the RAF now has some of the most modern AT/AAR aircraft in the world at its disposal - C-17, Voyager and Atlas, for example.
A real shame if people elect to PVR rather than to fly such aircraft.
By the way, Hueymeister, it was an ex-colleague ba captain of my acquaintance who told me of their company's attitude towards anything which could be considered abuse of social media by their employees, as he'd recently fallen foul of it. Now reinstated, thankfully.
Troll as you wish - but if you do, be careful of some companies' thought police...
A real shame if people elect to PVR rather than to fly such aircraft.
By the way, Hueymeister, it was an ex-colleague ba captain of my acquaintance who told me of their company's attitude towards anything which could be considered abuse of social media by their employees, as he'd recently fallen foul of it. Now reinstated, thankfully.
Troll as you wish - but if you do, be careful of some companies' thought police...
No, they're within a 2% of the population who apply and have a certain innate skillset. They then confuse this with being "top", nor 2% of the entire population.
By the way, Hueymeister, it was an ex-colleague ba captain of my acquaintance who told me of their company's attitude towards anything which could be considered abuse of social media by their employees, as he'd recently fallen foul of it. Now reinstated, thankfully.
Troll as you wish - but if you do, be careful of some companies' thought police...
Last edited by wiggy; 21st Oct 2016 at 16:32.
Me, troll? Never.
Merely concurring with a colleague's views.
Anyhoo, back to the thread; what's the outflow rate and for what reasons (PVR, end of TOS, option points etc)? That would be more interesting to know. Trained Effective Strength vs Preferred Manning Level and are there holes in unit/sqn experience levels...if that could be or should be discussed here that is...
Merely concurring with a colleague's views.Anyhoo, back to the thread; what's the outflow rate and for what reasons (PVR, end of TOS, option points etc)? That would be more interesting to know. Trained Effective Strength vs Preferred Manning Level and are there holes in unit/sqn experience levels...if that could be or should be discussed here that is...