What is the PVR rate amongst pilots these days?
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I suspect most are on SSC, so PVR not needed.
The RAF as a lifetime career is now only for a very few.
The RAF as a lifetime career is now only for a very few.
Is there a common thread these days running through 'Lifers' or has the emphasis on value for money and costs turned it into a transactional relationship and individuals stay for as long as they feel they are getting a decent return on their investment in the RAF?
It must be pretty dire in the RAF if pilots are PVR'-ing en masse to be 'locked in a cupboard with a stranger for 2 hours 4 times per day' in the RHS of a 737 taking drunken oiks to watering holes various...
Different in your ba time of course, newt - no room parties or days off in the sun with glamorous hosties these days for most airline crews. Just the misery of being worked to death thanks to rostering computers regarding FTLs as a target rather than a limit.
So glad I never used my ATPL for anything except GA instructing/examining!
Different in your ba time of course, newt - no room parties or days off in the sun with glamorous hosties these days for most airline crews. Just the misery of being worked to death thanks to rostering computers regarding FTLs as a target rather than a limit.
So glad I never used my ATPL for anything except GA instructing/examining!
The punitive return of service applied by Manning at each and every opportunity also provides little opportunity to PVR, as these periods routinely overlap. This has led to some interesting repercussions.
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I am, of course, completely out of date on the current situation and am simply offering the ill-informed murmurings of an old bloke sat at a keyboard.
And, although not a pilot, i stayed [most of] the course for a variety of probably outdated reasons:
Reasonable rates of pay
Decent pension
Interesting jobs
A good life, when all's considered
It was only when I had just 5 years to go, no further career prospects [read 'promotion'], and had become rather tired of sitting at an HQ/MoD desk year after year* instead of being 'out there' with the Real Air Force that I was seduced by the Redundancy offer. The loss of salary was somewhat offset by the benefits of dropping out of the higher tax bracket, thus making savings and investments more profitable.
* Three consecutive MoD tours, followed by a Group HQ job.
And, although not a pilot, i stayed [most of] the course for a variety of probably outdated reasons:
Reasonable rates of pay
Decent pension
Interesting jobs
A good life, when all's considered
It was only when I had just 5 years to go, no further career prospects [read 'promotion'], and had become rather tired of sitting at an HQ/MoD desk year after year* instead of being 'out there' with the Real Air Force that I was seduced by the Redundancy offer. The loss of salary was somewhat offset by the benefits of dropping out of the higher tax bracket, thus making savings and investments more profitable.
* Three consecutive MoD tours, followed by a Group HQ job.
Arguably your bullet points were the main reasons most of us remained. Sadly the exact same list has been targeted and slowly removed, taking our experience levels with it.
I found it gobsmacking when a VSO confidently announced that the military would now have more of a transactional basis with its employees. When quizzed as to how this would be possible given that the military has zero ability to change the remuneration package he simply shrugged his shoulders.
I found it gobsmacking when a VSO confidently announced that the military would now have more of a transactional basis with its employees. When quizzed as to how this would be possible given that the military has zero ability to change the remuneration package he simply shrugged his shoulders.
MPN11:-
In retrospect the very reason I PVR'd as a PC GD/P JO in 1973 (yes, I know, totally irrelevant these days, like me ;-). It is only since then that I have analysed my unease at the prospect of growing old as an SO in the RAF. As I see it, the RAF was designed as a bureaucracy in order to ensure its survival. It has thus almost reached its centenary, thus so far so good I suppose. I would maintain however that, from the point of view of a career, command prospects stop at the station gates.
Sqn/Unit/Wing/Stn Cdrs command the men and women they are responsible for, while those above simply man various levels of a bureaucratic pyramid that extend to the pinnacle CAS position. The titles are impressive of course; Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief, etc, but one is reminded of the words of the Siphonaptera...
Oh, simply to add that I spent the rest of my working life:-
mostly in the LHS but certainly ending up on the 737 that you instance, Beagle. Thoroughly enjoyed it, though the period spent with a certain BA subsidiary was a bit trying I admit. No regrets though, wouldn't have changed much of it, again in retrospect...
instead of being 'out there' with the Real Air Force
Sqn/Unit/Wing/Stn Cdrs command the men and women they are responsible for, while those above simply man various levels of a bureaucratic pyramid that extend to the pinnacle CAS position. The titles are impressive of course; Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief, etc, but one is reminded of the words of the Siphonaptera...
Oh, simply to add that I spent the rest of my working life:-
'locked in a cupboard with a stranger for 2 hours 4 times per day'
Last edited by Chugalug2; 20th Oct 2016 at 10:26. Reason: Cupboard life
Or Beagle, as a friend of mine is doing after leaving RAF a year ago. Flying a very big new 4 engine jet in a Big Airline in Uk. Stable roster, not changed daily. 4 star accom in worldwide hotels rather than leaky old rooms in Cyprus with often poor crew rest or preflight catering. And a substantial pay rise from day one!!
And no cameras found near side stick yet.
And no cameras found near side stick yet.
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Manning estimate a ~30% shortfall in fixed wing aircrew within next 3 years with current outflow rates and recruitment/training pipelines open fully.
Lots of multi-engine aircrew leaving post initial 6 year ROS. The huge pension blow, capped salary, reduction/removal of allowances and NEM have hit the pay offer; new flying pay offer on the cards for enactment in April. It won't be enough.
With Future Accommodation Model on the cards (it's not cost saving, honest) plus the huge amount of bureaucracy, reduced pension now at 20 yrs service, plus additional duties and instability that comes with post-Herrick Service, is there any reason for people to stay?
Lots of multi-engine aircrew leaving post initial 6 year ROS. The huge pension blow, capped salary, reduction/removal of allowances and NEM have hit the pay offer; new flying pay offer on the cards for enactment in April. It won't be enough.
With Future Accommodation Model on the cards (it's not cost saving, honest) plus the huge amount of bureaucracy, reduced pension now at 20 yrs service, plus additional duties and instability that comes with post-Herrick Service, is there any reason for people to stay?
Manning estimate a ~30% shortfall in fixed wing aircrew within next 3 years with current outflow rates and recruitment/training pipelines open fully.
Except that they can't do that any more - not even with FTRS and 'sponsored reserve' mercenaries. Not enough aircraft, airfields or instructors - as we all knew would be the outcome of all the cuts.
When your bucket of fun is smaller than your bucket of $hit....
At least we can always rely on BEagle to tell us exactly how it is.
I'm sorry if that comes across as grumpy but these threads are always the same. People who have either long left or who wish to leave will wax lyrical about how it was way better in the old days and how crap it is now. The people who are happy can't be arsed to post on PPrune.
I understand there are pinch points but this reads like a thread for the kind of people who go on the holiday of a lifetime and only remember the crap bits.
Can't we all just cheer up a bit?!
BV
I'm sorry if that comes across as grumpy but these threads are always the same. People who have either long left or who wish to leave will wax lyrical about how it was way better in the old days and how crap it is now. The people who are happy can't be arsed to post on PPrune.
I understand there are pinch points but this reads like a thread for the kind of people who go on the holiday of a lifetime and only remember the crap bits.
Can't we all just cheer up a bit?!
BV
Nice one BV! Well said. There is a manning crisis looming and, as ever, the cracks will be papered-over. People will be happy with their lot, or not and the inflow/outflow will continue. Simples really.
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I'm happy. Lots of long-haul holidays funded by our RAF pensions. Or is that the wrong thing to say? 
I'm sorry if that comes across as grumpy but these threads are always the same. People who have either long left or who wish to leave will wax lyrical about how it was way better in the old days and how crap it is now. The people who are happy can't be arsed to post on PPRuNe.
I freely admit that I detest the closures and the creeping cancer of contractorisation which is today so prevalent.
If there was a sudden surge need, how would YOU solve the shortage of instructors, aircraft and airfields in your present-day Utopia, BV? Or is Jack alright at Valley and that's all that matters?
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The RAF is set up for the Wars we are having now, not the ones that might happen in the future. That's the bit that bothers me deeply, although I accept that UK plc can't afford to do much about that. Perhaps some reasonable mid-range equipment, instead of Gen 4/5, might be useful in some scenarios - with the people to operate them, of course.
"We don't need a big wing, or a small wing, we need pilots - and a miracle".
I hope it won't ever come to that again - with only a few mercenaries and a handful of training aircraft stuck on a Welsh rock available to cope with the necessary training workload.
I hope it won't ever come to that again - with only a few mercenaries and a handful of training aircraft stuck on a Welsh rock available to cope with the necessary training workload.
Last edited by BEagle; 20th Oct 2016 at 18:53.
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As I see it, the reasons people join/stay are from the following:
1. Pay and pension
2. Quality of the training
3. Diversity of employment and tours
4. Lifestyle, including leave, AT and sport
Point 1 is no longer as good relative to civilian employment as it used to be
Point 2 will certainly recruit people, but is not something that can be used to retain people
Point 3 has reduced with contractorisation, FTRS etc, and there is now little to retain people beyond (at best) 2 front lines tours followed by an instructional tour
Point 4 is still pretty good, provided that the culture on Stns encourages it. AT and sport in particular are what sets this job apart from a civilian one, and participation should be actively encouraged. Will it retain people though? Probably not beyond 2-3 tours.
The net result is that Service life will now hold an appeal of about 6-9 years, until most people have has their fun. I expect this is probably the intended effect of the recent changes anyway. The down-side will be that only the talentless remain until their 20 year point, while the best use the Services as a fun first career.
Finally, I should add that the mega-thrusters are not really included in the above, as they only have a desire for personal success.
1. Pay and pension
2. Quality of the training
3. Diversity of employment and tours
4. Lifestyle, including leave, AT and sport
Point 1 is no longer as good relative to civilian employment as it used to be
Point 2 will certainly recruit people, but is not something that can be used to retain people
Point 3 has reduced with contractorisation, FTRS etc, and there is now little to retain people beyond (at best) 2 front lines tours followed by an instructional tour
Point 4 is still pretty good, provided that the culture on Stns encourages it. AT and sport in particular are what sets this job apart from a civilian one, and participation should be actively encouraged. Will it retain people though? Probably not beyond 2-3 tours.
The net result is that Service life will now hold an appeal of about 6-9 years, until most people have has their fun. I expect this is probably the intended effect of the recent changes anyway. The down-side will be that only the talentless remain until their 20 year point, while the best use the Services as a fun first career.
Finally, I should add that the mega-thrusters are not really included in the above, as they only have a desire for personal success.