Comment on "Fly Past" magazine article on Vultee Vengeance in WWII.
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Substitute 'Hearsay' with 'Danny-Say' and you will still have a substantial [and authentic*] tome 
* Memory permitting, of course!
* Memory permitting, of course!
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onetrack (#53),
Thanks for the link, tried it on Internet Explorer, no joy.
Today have Google Chrome back, tried that, success ! It's the Imber incident, fairly well known at the time. Sgt McLachlan does not appear to have paid much attention to his target briefing - a collection of old tanks does look rather different from a row of spectators. Don't think his nationality has anything to do with it. The man was an idiot.
Danny.
Thanks for the link, tried it on Internet Explorer, no joy.
Today have Google Chrome back, tried that, success ! It's the Imber incident, fairly well known at the time. Sgt McLachlan does not appear to have paid much attention to his target briefing - a collection of old tanks does look rather different from a row of spectators. Don't think his nationality has anything to do with it. The man was an idiot.
Danny.
Danny, I am indebted to oneshot for his link to the AWM. I did a search for "RAF Vultee Vengeance" (as against IAF) and came up with this melange. The VV appearance is brief but rather dramatic! Reminds me of the Hastings that I left in a similar pose! The bulk of the video is perhaps more interesting to me than to you, being of Dakota supply dropping at various DZs and low (at times very low!) transits in between. Silent I'm afraid, so pianoforte accompaniment recommended. Info here:-
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/F02125/
Video here:-
https://www.awm.gov.au/video/F02125.mp4
Added to say that I realise that it was part of the video collection that he pointed to, but perhaps still worth highlighting.
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/F02125/
Video here:-
https://www.awm.gov.au/video/F02125.mp4
Added to say that I realise that it was part of the video collection that he pointed to, but perhaps still worth highlighting.
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Danny, you may have already answered this question somewhere else, and if so apologies in advance for my poor search skills.
How did you actually aim your bombs in a dive-bombing attack. Was it via gunsight, some form of bombsight, or Mark 1 eyeball?
How did you actually aim your bombs in a dive-bombing attack. Was it via gunsight, some form of bombsight, or Mark 1 eyeball?
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"Down and down you go..." ("That ole' black magic" !)
Hempy,
Mk.I eyeball !
My p.133 #2658 has a full description of my first 'op'. Extract follows:
A telescopic sight was tried (excerpt from Google 'single Post" so cannot give page/Post ref), with the result:
The mind boggles !
Danny.
Mk.I eyeball !
My p.133 #2658 has a full description of my first 'op'. Extract follows:
...But the Jail sortie will do very well to begin with. And this description of it will do as a template for every VV operation which followed, for the modus opendi was always the same. Off we go, then.
I've said that we normally put up only six aircraft at a time. On this single occasion, we scraped up twelve - six from 110 and six from 82 Sqdn. 82 ("Out of the blue came Eighty-Two!") were to go in first. As a new boy on 110, I flew the 6 position, which would mean I would be the last man of all to go down. As I never flew in a 12-ship strike again, this was the only time I was able to watch all the action from the air.
Topper was leading our six. We came in from the North at 12,000 ft with 82 ahead. It was afternoon. As we reached the island, the heavies opened up. Our two formations were "weaving", flying a slow zig-zag with a course change every twenty seconds or so. This confuses the gun predictors, so the flak bursts were 2-300 ft off to the side, but uncomfortably accurate for height. We overflew the island, then turned left in a wide sweep over the mainland, flying right round until we reached Akyab again, but this time coming out of the haze and gloom of the eastern sky.
It was a clever ruse (if it was a ruse - perhaps the 82 leader had simply misjudged his first run-up). Later intelligence confirmed that the Jap had put out an air raid warning the first time. But as we didn't bomb, they assumed that we were going on somewhere else and sounded the all-clear. Second time round, we caught them napping, sitting with their evening rice.
The jail was a bomber's dream target. Built on the cart-wheel plan, I suppose it was 2-300 ft across. It was unmissable. It must have been the largest building on the island. As the last man on the line, I could allow myself room to watch the action. 82 were a mile ahead, so I watched them all go down. They were like beads sliding down a string, three spaced out at a time. I could see the bomb flashes dead on target, billowing up in smoke and dust.
Then it was our turn. Topper waggles his wings. This is the signal for the rear "vic" to drop back and move into echelon starboard. A few seconds later, he waggles again and opens his bomb doors. All open theirs. 3 and 6 (me) swing across into echelon on 2 and 5 respectively. Now we're all in a diagonal line like a skein of geese. (This formation change is made only at the last moment, for although it looks nice on the newsreels, it leaves you practically at the mercy of an attacker - and it advertises your imminent attack to any watcher on the ground).
Mechanically I go through my drill: Canopy shut, check bomb doors open, bomb switches "live", trims neutral, 2100 rpm, mixture rich, gyros caged, cowl gills closed, straps tight. The first three go down. A few seconds later 4 goes over, settles in the dive and puts his brakes out. 5 puts his out as he rolls over. I put mine out, throttle back to a third and then roll. This gives us an extra bit of spacing for safety.
After that, it's simply "doin' what comes nacherly". Rolling over, I throw my head back and look straight down on the dust cloud over the jail - or what's left of it. Then it's just a matter of sighting down the yellow line and "flying" it onto the target. Feet braced on my big fat rudder pedals, I sense the dive is as near vertical as dammit - you can feel it with practice. Topper has done us proud, for this is a follow-my-leader operation, and if he's off vertical, then the whole thing will be a mess.
I can see 4 and 5 ahead for a few moments, then 4 pulls away from my field of vision. Bomb flash. I'm snatching quick glances at my altimeter, which is spinning like a broken clock, one sweep of the "big hand" every two or three seconds. 5 pulls away, keep line on target, bomb flash, 5000 ft, check line, 4000, check, 3500, press button (on throttle grip) and pull, pull, pull for dear life - literally - five seconds too late and you're dead...
I've said that we normally put up only six aircraft at a time. On this single occasion, we scraped up twelve - six from 110 and six from 82 Sqdn. 82 ("Out of the blue came Eighty-Two!") were to go in first. As a new boy on 110, I flew the 6 position, which would mean I would be the last man of all to go down. As I never flew in a 12-ship strike again, this was the only time I was able to watch all the action from the air.
Topper was leading our six. We came in from the North at 12,000 ft with 82 ahead. It was afternoon. As we reached the island, the heavies opened up. Our two formations were "weaving", flying a slow zig-zag with a course change every twenty seconds or so. This confuses the gun predictors, so the flak bursts were 2-300 ft off to the side, but uncomfortably accurate for height. We overflew the island, then turned left in a wide sweep over the mainland, flying right round until we reached Akyab again, but this time coming out of the haze and gloom of the eastern sky.
It was a clever ruse (if it was a ruse - perhaps the 82 leader had simply misjudged his first run-up). Later intelligence confirmed that the Jap had put out an air raid warning the first time. But as we didn't bomb, they assumed that we were going on somewhere else and sounded the all-clear. Second time round, we caught them napping, sitting with their evening rice.
The jail was a bomber's dream target. Built on the cart-wheel plan, I suppose it was 2-300 ft across. It was unmissable. It must have been the largest building on the island. As the last man on the line, I could allow myself room to watch the action. 82 were a mile ahead, so I watched them all go down. They were like beads sliding down a string, three spaced out at a time. I could see the bomb flashes dead on target, billowing up in smoke and dust.
Then it was our turn. Topper waggles his wings. This is the signal for the rear "vic" to drop back and move into echelon starboard. A few seconds later, he waggles again and opens his bomb doors. All open theirs. 3 and 6 (me) swing across into echelon on 2 and 5 respectively. Now we're all in a diagonal line like a skein of geese. (This formation change is made only at the last moment, for although it looks nice on the newsreels, it leaves you practically at the mercy of an attacker - and it advertises your imminent attack to any watcher on the ground).
Mechanically I go through my drill: Canopy shut, check bomb doors open, bomb switches "live", trims neutral, 2100 rpm, mixture rich, gyros caged, cowl gills closed, straps tight. The first three go down. A few seconds later 4 goes over, settles in the dive and puts his brakes out. 5 puts his out as he rolls over. I put mine out, throttle back to a third and then roll. This gives us an extra bit of spacing for safety.
After that, it's simply "doin' what comes nacherly". Rolling over, I throw my head back and look straight down on the dust cloud over the jail - or what's left of it. Then it's just a matter of sighting down the yellow line and "flying" it onto the target. Feet braced on my big fat rudder pedals, I sense the dive is as near vertical as dammit - you can feel it with practice. Topper has done us proud, for this is a follow-my-leader operation, and if he's off vertical, then the whole thing will be a mess.
I can see 4 and 5 ahead for a few moments, then 4 pulls away from my field of vision. Bomb flash. I'm snatching quick glances at my altimeter, which is spinning like a broken clock, one sweep of the "big hand" every two or three seconds. 5 pulls away, keep line on target, bomb flash, 5000 ft, check line, 4000, check, 3500, press button (on throttle grip) and pull, pull, pull for dear life - literally - five seconds too late and you're dead...
...There was nothing in the RAF's accumulated stock of wisdom about dive bombing, and we'd had to work it all out for ourselves. There was a story (for which I cannot vouch), that late in '42 one of the other squadrons had been visited by a couple of types who had done a dive-bombing course with the US Navy in Pensacola. They intended to go round all the Squadrons to lighten our darkness with their "gen"; they preached the nose-over method and brought along some form of tubular (telescopic ?) bombsight which they had been given in the US.
A sceptical audience of 82 Sqdn ? - (I believe they got their VVs first, in late '42) - heard them out. "Show us", they said. They gave one of the "experts" a VV and he rigged up his patent sight in it.
Unfamiliar with a VV and concentrating on his bombsight, he forgot to open the dive brakes. His attentive class gloomily surveyed the smoking hole and decided that it might be better to do it their way. Wing-overs are much more comfortable than push-overs and the yellow line was all the bombsight we needed (the other "expert" being rather discredited, retired hurt).
Having said that, I believe that the "Stuka" was nosed-over (not so bad if you're only diving 60-70 degrees), and Wiki tells me that they had some kind of window in the cockpit floor through which they sighted their target.
I cannot see the point of this, the area you can see on the ground through a window on the floor has to be relatively small compared with that (say 25 square miles or more) at 10,000 ft, which is blanked off by the mass of aircraft you're sitting on. And what about the 500 kg bomb which was carried right in your line of sight ? The only way to do it would have been to fly nearly up to the target, turn sharply on to it, hope it pops up in the window and nose dive on it. And were you trying to fly formation and gawping through this window at the same time ?...
A sceptical audience of 82 Sqdn ? - (I believe they got their VVs first, in late '42) - heard them out. "Show us", they said. They gave one of the "experts" a VV and he rigged up his patent sight in it.
Unfamiliar with a VV and concentrating on his bombsight, he forgot to open the dive brakes. His attentive class gloomily surveyed the smoking hole and decided that it might be better to do it their way. Wing-overs are much more comfortable than push-overs and the yellow line was all the bombsight we needed (the other "expert" being rather discredited, retired hurt).
Having said that, I believe that the "Stuka" was nosed-over (not so bad if you're only diving 60-70 degrees), and Wiki tells me that they had some kind of window in the cockpit floor through which they sighted their target.
I cannot see the point of this, the area you can see on the ground through a window on the floor has to be relatively small compared with that (say 25 square miles or more) at 10,000 ft, which is blanked off by the mass of aircraft you're sitting on. And what about the 500 kg bomb which was carried right in your line of sight ? The only way to do it would have been to fly nearly up to the target, turn sharply on to it, hope it pops up in the window and nose dive on it. And were you trying to fly formation and gawping through this window at the same time ?...
Danny.
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Danny, thanks for that 
When you say you sight down the yellow line, does that mean that there was a centreline painted along the nose of the a/c giving you a reference? I've tried looking on the interwebs for a photo, but there aren't many looking down on the aircraft from above. Certainly no modlers have picked up on this little tidbit.
Fascinating stuff
When you say you sight down the yellow line, does that mean that there was a centreline painted along the nose of the a/c giving you a reference? I've tried looking on the interwebs for a photo, but there aren't many looking down on the aircraft from above. Certainly no modlers have picked up on this little tidbit.
Fascinating stuff
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Hempy,
It's interesting that you raised the subject of modellers' interest in the VV.
A quick Giggle brought up the site of Australian Modellers International.
On there, there's a fair swag of detail photos of the Camden Museum's EZ999.
Amongst those is a photo of the instrument panel, previously commented on, as presented.
While I know EZ999 had been discussed on a separate thread, I hadn't seen those pics before.
Perhaps Danny, when he has a spare moment, might care to peruse those quite clear images of the machine, and comment.
.
It's interesting that you raised the subject of modellers' interest in the VV.
A quick Giggle brought up the site of Australian Modellers International.
On there, there's a fair swag of detail photos of the Camden Museum's EZ999.
Amongst those is a photo of the instrument panel, previously commented on, as presented.
While I know EZ999 had been discussed on a separate thread, I hadn't seen those pics before.
Perhaps Danny, when he has a spare moment, might care to peruse those quite clear images of the machine, and comment.
.
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Thanks for that link, mmitch.
Most interesting - and some competent modelling there.
There's also a pic of Danny himself pedalling his own machine.
Danny had asked a specific question (on the 'Brevet' thread, I think) re a photo of a Vengeance instrument panel.
The answer to his question is contained within one of the pics I mentioned above.
.
Most interesting - and some competent modelling there.
There's also a pic of Danny himself pedalling his own machine.
Danny had asked a specific question (on the 'Brevet' thread, I think) re a photo of a Vengeance instrument panel.
The answer to his question is contained within one of the pics I mentioned above.
.
Last edited by Stanwell; 22nd Aug 2016 at 09:00.
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Hempy (#66),
I should have elaborated. Along the centreline of the fuselage, from the top of the cowling back to the base of the screen, was painted an inch-thick yellow line.
So when you entered your dive, your previous horizontal plane now became a vertical one, and you flew with reference to that. Now the lack of an Angle of Incidence, which had been such a curse in normal flight, now turned into a blessing. For the Vengeance had stopped flying, and become a guided ballistic weapon. Now it "fell" beautifully "level" (from your point of view), you could sight down the line and "fly" the aircraft onto it quite normally, and hold it there.
As I've put it somewhere, you "threw" the VV at the target much as a darts player "throws" his wrist at the board. This happy situation lasted only twenty seconds or so, then you pressed the button, pulled out, with the application of "G" the VV became an aeroplane again (albeit an old clodhopper).
Danny.
I should have elaborated. Along the centreline of the fuselage, from the top of the cowling back to the base of the screen, was painted an inch-thick yellow line.
So when you entered your dive, your previous horizontal plane now became a vertical one, and you flew with reference to that. Now the lack of an Angle of Incidence, which had been such a curse in normal flight, now turned into a blessing. For the Vengeance had stopped flying, and become a guided ballistic weapon. Now it "fell" beautifully "level" (from your point of view), you could sight down the line and "fly" the aircraft onto it quite normally, and hold it there.
As I've put it somewhere, you "threw" the VV at the target much as a darts player "throws" his wrist at the board. This happy situation lasted only twenty seconds or so, then you pressed the button, pulled out, with the application of "G" the VV became an aeroplane again (albeit an old clodhopper).
Danny.
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Thank you again Danny. Do you know if this line was a British 'solve', or was it there when the aircraft arrived from the factory? As I said, it's always intrigued me as to how dive bombers 'aimed', or more accurately 'stayed on target'. I suppose when said target was growing large in the windscreen it would be a straight forward answer, but I've never seen the stripe in a photograph.
Cheers!
Cheers!
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mmitch (#68) and Stanwell (#69),
Not for me it didn't - I got a load of International Harvester trucks ! Tried Australian Modellers Vultee Vengeance International, and got one scratty pic of a VV.
I suspect that all roads will lead back to Dick Simpson's marvellous pics of the Narellan (Camden Museum) Vengeance, and we know those well enough. But a high quality pic of the Camden panel now - that would be something to see.
I reckon that the panel in EZ999 started life quite normally in a Mk.I. Then the engineering students at the Tech College got hold of it and God knows what they did with it. I suspect that any Flight instruments (useful to a home builder) would be looted and replaced with any old clock they could find to fill the hole (this would account for the double ball in the DI, which never was in any Mk.I, to my certain knowledge: we had a plain old DI).
(The Museum was a whole load of help, dresssing the thing up as a Mk.IV with that thundering great cannon in the back, and throwing everyone off the scent).
I suspect that what is in the front room of the Camden VV is a 'bitsa', unlike any VV living or dead.
Dear old FB986, never gave any trouble, had been "M" for Mother on some squadron, but as a Mk.III would not have seen combat (none of them did). Taken over the foothills of the Western Ghats south of Cannanore. We sprayed mustard on volunteer squaddies to see if their Gas Capes were any good (not much, IIRC). Chopped up at Nagpur in the end.
Finally we cleaned 'em out (I hope) and sprayed DDT on some unsuspecting Indian villages to reduce incidence of malaria. Worked, too - until they found that DDT was toxic. Ah, well.
Danny.
...A quick Giggle brought up the site of Australian Modellers International...
I suspect that all roads will lead back to Dick Simpson's marvellous pics of the Narellan (Camden Museum) Vengeance, and we know those well enough. But a high quality pic of the Camden panel now - that would be something to see.
I reckon that the panel in EZ999 started life quite normally in a Mk.I. Then the engineering students at the Tech College got hold of it and God knows what they did with it. I suspect that any Flight instruments (useful to a home builder) would be looted and replaced with any old clock they could find to fill the hole (this would account for the double ball in the DI, which never was in any Mk.I, to my certain knowledge: we had a plain old DI).
(The Museum was a whole load of help, dresssing the thing up as a Mk.IV with that thundering great cannon in the back, and throwing everyone off the scent).
I suspect that what is in the front room of the Camden VV is a 'bitsa', unlike any VV living or dead.
...There's also a pic of Danny himself pedalling his own machine...
Finally we cleaned 'em out (I hope) and sprayed DDT on some unsuspecting Indian villages to reduce incidence of malaria. Worked, too - until they found that DDT was toxic. Ah, well.
Danny.
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Here you go, Danny42C - this should work for you ... there's three pages of photos of EZ9999 below, and I have linked to Page 2, as that page shows the instrument panel.
EZ9999 Vultee Vengeance photos
RE: "Much of this is hearsay, I had no means then, and have no means now, of establishing the truth of what I write" ...
What would aviation stories and history be, without a little embellishment?
It's when the listeners roll their eyes sideways and skywards, that you then know, it's time to ease up ...
I once found a great WW2 photo on some musuem site, of a dashing pilot officer entertaining a very attractive young lady in the club.
He was pictured with arms outstretched, and obviously telling a great story. No-one advised the poor reader, as to whether the story actually won the lass over ...
EZ9999 Vultee Vengeance photos
RE: "Much of this is hearsay, I had no means then, and have no means now, of establishing the truth of what I write" ...
What would aviation stories and history be, without a little embellishment?
It's when the listeners roll their eyes sideways and skywards, that you then know, it's time to ease up ...
I once found a great WW2 photo on some musuem site, of a dashing pilot officer entertaining a very attractive young lady in the club.
He was pictured with arms outstretched, and obviously telling a great story. No-one advised the poor reader, as to whether the story actually won the lass over ...
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onetrack,
Thanks for the link ! Remember seeing these Danielle Lang photos a long time ago, but can't remember the context. At the time, I'd never seen anything like it in my life, it was not out of a Vengeance I-II-III, therefore it must be a Mk.IV (which I had/have never seen).
The picture (on the first row of the set) has been widely taken up as a Vengeance Pilot's Control Panel; Peter C. Smith includes a drawing of it as an Appendix to his "Vengeance!"; I think it was copied in the RAF Pilot's notes for the (TT) Mk.IVs we got.
I cannot say for certain that it is not a Mk.IV panel, but I now think it is just an old lash-up as described. I think now no one alive knows what a Mk.IV panel looked like. Perhaps somewhere in the Consolidited Vultee Archives ? The most likely place to look for a living pilot would be in Australia, for I think they got a lot of them.
Look at it, one or two of the clocks are band-box fresh, on some the luminous paint old and faded to different degrees. Remember, this airframe is EZ999 (a Mk.I), not a Mk.IV. And, if you want another ball in the DI (why would you?). why put it right alongside the ball already in the turn-and -bank ?
I've given up on this !
Danny.
Thanks for the link ! Remember seeing these Danielle Lang photos a long time ago, but can't remember the context. At the time, I'd never seen anything like it in my life, it was not out of a Vengeance I-II-III, therefore it must be a Mk.IV (which I had/have never seen).
The picture (on the first row of the set) has been widely taken up as a Vengeance Pilot's Control Panel; Peter C. Smith includes a drawing of it as an Appendix to his "Vengeance!"; I think it was copied in the RAF Pilot's notes for the (TT) Mk.IVs we got.
I cannot say for certain that it is not a Mk.IV panel, but I now think it is just an old lash-up as described. I think now no one alive knows what a Mk.IV panel looked like. Perhaps somewhere in the Consolidited Vultee Archives ? The most likely place to look for a living pilot would be in Australia, for I think they got a lot of them.
Look at it, one or two of the clocks are band-box fresh, on some the luminous paint old and faded to different degrees. Remember, this airframe is EZ999 (a Mk.I), not a Mk.IV. And, if you want another ball in the DI (why would you?). why put it right alongside the ball already in the turn-and -bank ?
I've given up on this !
Danny.
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Oh God ... so sorry, Danny.
My thoughts are with you, and thanks for letting us know in the midst of that.
My thoughts are with you, and thanks for letting us know in the midst of that.