Comment on "Fly Past" magazine article on Vultee Vengeance in WWII.
Respectful applause from me, Danny, together with a gentle reminder that at least one Vengeance is still serving, vide HMS Vengeance (S31) | Royal Navy !
Jack
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Better late than never !
Thank you all for the kind things said about my comments on the "Fly Past" article about my old cantankerous steed. Did us proud, Sean !
Now unfinished business:
onetrack (#32),
I must apologise for this tardy reply to your helpful offer on 12th August:
I have seen this before at various times, thank you, onetrack. Another wonderful clip was Posted by Chugalug (Pilot's Brevet; page 129; #2561) but the YouTube seems to have gone AWOL. I am sure it must be visible somewhere else, but don't have the technical skill to go after it (try BHARAT RAKSHAK [IAF] for a start ?]
Anyone interested in the "Fly Past" article must see the Australian War Museum film which onetrack has got for us.
Danny.
Now unfinished business:
onetrack (#32),
I must apologise for this tardy reply to your helpful offer on 12th August:
...I would think Danny42C would enjoy perusing the collection.....The AWM VV collection includes.....plus 4 films, one of which is online, and which shows the IAF using VV's.....I'd expect the excellent short (6 min) film of the IAF VV's would provide some memory-jogging moments for him....Vultee Vengeance - AWM...
Anyone interested in the "Fly Past" article must see the Australian War Museum film which onetrack has got for us.
Danny.
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First, A salute to Danny42c for yet anotehr lovely thread on the Vengeance. Its always a pleasure to read his posts - and especially when he talks about the Vengeance and in India..
Next I would liek to address MPN11's post.
If i may jump to Sqn Ldr Prasad's defence - No.8 was not really sitting on their backsides doing nothing. Under Sqn Ldr Prasad's command, between 15 Dec 43 and 24 March 44, the Squadron flew hundreds of sorties with both its Indian and British flight.
Prasad's sudden posting out on 24.3.44 was reported in the ORB as thus
"This came as a suprise to all ranks and all Indian officers and other rnaks took it as a real sad news. One could see gloomy atmosphere all around... crews felt they were losing a good leader and others felt the loss of a good commanding officer..".. the ORB page btw is signed by Ira Sutherland.
There is some controversy about his posting out. the one Indian veteran pilot I spoke with spoke highly of Prasad. and suggested there was some friction between him and his British Flt Cdr . Ofcourse Prasad didnt get along well with everyone.. some got along fine, some didnt.
Next I would liek to address MPN11's post.
A sad recollecition, Danny ... No. 8 sitting on their backsides doing nothing? Didn't they know there was a War on?!
No wonder Sqn Ldr Prasad was replaced!
No wonder Sqn Ldr Prasad was replaced!
Prasad's sudden posting out on 24.3.44 was reported in the ORB as thus
"This came as a suprise to all ranks and all Indian officers and other rnaks took it as a real sad news. One could see gloomy atmosphere all around... crews felt they were losing a good leader and others felt the loss of a good commanding officer..".. the ORB page btw is signed by Ira Sutherland.
There is some controversy about his posting out. the one Indian veteran pilot I spoke with spoke highly of Prasad. and suggested there was some friction between him and his British Flt Cdr . Ofcourse Prasad didnt get along well with everyone.. some got along fine, some didnt.
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jaganpvs ... thank you for that detail, and especially the link*, and my apologies if I have caused any offence.
* Do I spy a youthful Danny42C in this photograph of 8 Sqn ?
* Do I spy a youthful Danny42C in this photograph of 8 Sqn ?
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jaganpvs,
On "Pilot's Brevet" Thread (page 138, #2743), I say:
The rest of the Post may be worth a read (IMHO !)
We know a Jagan on here - any relation ?
Danny.
On "Pilot's Brevet" Thread (page 138, #2743), I say:
... We had an Indian C.O. (Sqn.Ldr. N. Prasad). He struck me as a very reserved, scholarly, intellectual type, far better suited as a Staff officer than in the rough-and-tumble of Squadron life (he did, IIRC, reach air rank in the postwar IAF).
He was replaced some time in February '44 by Sqn.Ldr. Ira K. Sutherland, a tough New Zealander with a hard reputation as a martinet. The Indian "A" Flight Commander, Flt.Lt. "Pop" Chopra, was the exact opposite of S/Ldr Prasad. A mustachioed, cheerful extrovert, he was the life and soul of the party and very popular with everyone...
He was replaced some time in February '44 by Sqn.Ldr. Ira K. Sutherland, a tough New Zealander with a hard reputation as a martinet. The Indian "A" Flight Commander, Flt.Lt. "Pop" Chopra, was the exact opposite of S/Ldr Prasad. A mustachioed, cheerful extrovert, he was the life and soul of the party and very popular with everyone...
We know a Jagan on here - any relation ?
Danny.
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HI Danny, yes I am the same Jagan.
MPN11. No worries - always glad to share more info. I really would like to get to the reason behind his Prasad's posting out.
A small bit of trivia - Prasad was an Army Officer who was seconded to the IAF. He went back to the Army end of the war and later became a Major General - but had to leave in cloud because one of the wars with Pakistan did not work in his favour. While in the army - he wore the IAF Pilots Badge , right upto the time he left as a General. - one of the few handful of army officers qualified to go around as such..
MPN11. No worries - always glad to share more info. I really would like to get to the reason behind his Prasad's posting out.
A small bit of trivia - Prasad was an Army Officer who was seconded to the IAF. He went back to the Army end of the war and later became a Major General - but had to leave in cloud because one of the wars with Pakistan did not work in his favour. While in the army - he wore the IAF Pilots Badge , right upto the time he left as a General. - one of the few handful of army officers qualified to go around as such..
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Danny42C ... is it you? The moustache, the cheekbones, the jaw-line, the steely glint in the eye ... surely it is you , 2nd left, front row?
Last edited by MPN11; 17th Aug 2016 at 19:16. Reason: winding him up to confess!
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Alas, no ! Can't remember being in any squadron photograph like that. Thought the ferocious one bottom row might've been Boss Sutherland, but now see he's a F/Sgt.
Might have been after my time. Chap with Cap S.D. vaguely familiar, can't be sure.
Presume pic of me taken on ATC Course 1955, more hair then, enjoying last few weeks of bachelor freedom.
Settle down now for BBC2 2100 (Right up your street !).
Danny.
Might have been after my time. Chap with Cap S.D. vaguely familiar, can't be sure.
Presume pic of me taken on ATC Course 1955, more hair then, enjoying last few weeks of bachelor freedom.
Settle down now for BBC2 2100 (Right up your street !).
Danny.
Danny is this the video that you mention in post #45? I seem to remember your critical comments about the shallow "ground attack" shots as against a proper vertical dive. Perhaps the latter was no longer "PC" at this time? :-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8RqlK1d1_k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8RqlK1d1_k
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All Stuka units were moved to Germany's eastern border in preparation for the invasion of Poland. On the morning of 15 August 1939, during a mass-formation dive-bombing demonstration for high-ranking commanders of the Luftwaffe at Neuhammer training grounds near Sagan, 13 Ju 87s and 26 crew members were lost when they crashed into the ground almost simultaneously.
The planes dived through cloud, expecting to release their practice bombs and pull out of the dive once below the cloud ceiling, unaware that on that particular day the ceiling was too low and unexpected ground mist formed, leaving them no time to pull out of the dive.
The planes dived through cloud, expecting to release their practice bombs and pull out of the dive once below the cloud ceiling, unaware that on that particular day the ceiling was too low and unexpected ground mist formed, leaving them no time to pull out of the dive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imber_..._fire_incident
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Horses for Courses.
Chugalug (#52),
Thanks for the link ! Unfortunately my Google Chrome is "tied up" for the moment (for reasons which would take too long to explain): so tried it on Internet Explorer (only other thing I have), wouldn't play. So a "treat in store" (hope to get G.C. back some time today).
But I can guess what it's all about. My views on LL Ground attack with VVs remain the same. I have said that we never tried it operationally in my time (on 8 IAF and 110), and this is true.
But a hunt through my log book reveals: 26 and 28 June '43, "1 Shallow Dive" (plus 3 High Level) each. And on 7 August '43, just "Shallow Dive". Note all of these are in training after 110 had been pulled back to W. Bengal to sit out the monsoon. I have not the slightest memory of these exercises and no idea of results. But it shows that the idea was tried.
Now if you're sculling around in hilly country, with low monsoon cloud and pouring rain, you want an aircraft in which the pilot can see where he's going, and which is "chuckable" (for want of a better word). On both counts, the Vengeance fails miserably. You would have to approach in a "shallow dive", or you could see nothing ahead, and when you pulled the nose up to bomb, you would lose sight of the target completely. Of course that is true of anything, but you would "lose" your target very much sooner than in a Hurricane (say), it would just be a case of chucking the thing off and hoping for the best.
And the best word to describe a Vengeance is "Ponderous". "Chuckable" it ain't. How would a Hastings be for ground attack in the hills in poor weather ? We've got Hurricanes and Beaufighters for the job: Mosquitoes and Thunderbolts coming. Use the Vengeance for the work it was designed for, and which it could do extremely well !
On "Pilot's Brevet", Walter has sad news.
Danny.
Thanks for the link ! Unfortunately my Google Chrome is "tied up" for the moment (for reasons which would take too long to explain): so tried it on Internet Explorer (only other thing I have), wouldn't play. So a "treat in store" (hope to get G.C. back some time today).
But I can guess what it's all about. My views on LL Ground attack with VVs remain the same. I have said that we never tried it operationally in my time (on 8 IAF and 110), and this is true.
But a hunt through my log book reveals: 26 and 28 June '43, "1 Shallow Dive" (plus 3 High Level) each. And on 7 August '43, just "Shallow Dive". Note all of these are in training after 110 had been pulled back to W. Bengal to sit out the monsoon. I have not the slightest memory of these exercises and no idea of results. But it shows that the idea was tried.
Now if you're sculling around in hilly country, with low monsoon cloud and pouring rain, you want an aircraft in which the pilot can see where he's going, and which is "chuckable" (for want of a better word). On both counts, the Vengeance fails miserably. You would have to approach in a "shallow dive", or you could see nothing ahead, and when you pulled the nose up to bomb, you would lose sight of the target completely. Of course that is true of anything, but you would "lose" your target very much sooner than in a Hurricane (say), it would just be a case of chucking the thing off and hoping for the best.
And the best word to describe a Vengeance is "Ponderous". "Chuckable" it ain't. How would a Hastings be for ground attack in the hills in poor weather ? We've got Hurricanes and Beaufighters for the job: Mosquitoes and Thunderbolts coming. Use the Vengeance for the work it was designed for, and which it could do extremely well !
On "Pilot's Brevet", Walter has sad news.
Danny.
Danny, sorry to hear that Chrome is playing up (presumably by not opening links on a fresh page). Have you tried a "right click" on your mouse/tracker pad? If it offers "open in new window (or some such) select it and see if it obliges having outlined the link. Of course, there are other browsers that may or may not be already on your computer such as Internet Explorer, Firefox, etc, but I know that you don't care to tinker about too much...
Not too well in good or bad wx to be honest, unless you count dropping SEAC 'chutes onto tiny DZs in Borneo's valleys. It was quite good at doing that, as long as you could stay below the low cloud.
Your summing up of the pointless misuse of an aircraft designed for a specialised purpose that made it useless for any other (target towing not withstanding) is clear and succinct. Given the closeness to the front line, the rare appearance of hostile aircraft, and the precision results that dive bombing assured, it is indeed a mystery as to why this rugged and dependable aircraft was pensioned off. If the Luftwaffe were happy to go on using the Ju 87 as long as air superiority was generally assured, why wasn't the RAF so minded with the VV? "Not Invented Here", perhaps?
Of course, as both onetrack and you observe, it was basically a fair weather machine, hence monsoon time was "out of season"!
How would a Hastings be for ground attack in the hills in poor weather ?
Your summing up of the pointless misuse of an aircraft designed for a specialised purpose that made it useless for any other (target towing not withstanding) is clear and succinct. Given the closeness to the front line, the rare appearance of hostile aircraft, and the precision results that dive bombing assured, it is indeed a mystery as to why this rugged and dependable aircraft was pensioned off. If the Luftwaffe were happy to go on using the Ju 87 as long as air superiority was generally assured, why wasn't the RAF so minded with the VV? "Not Invented Here", perhaps?
Of course, as both onetrack and you observe, it was basically a fair weather machine, hence monsoon time was "out of season"!
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Chugalug,
Google Chrome problems admin, not technical, fixed.
Worse than that. The RAF didn't really want a dive bomber at all, wished they'd never taken over the French contract, and when they saw what they'd bought (at $63,000 a throw), were only concerned to put it "out of sight, out of mind" - which amounted to India in those days.
Then, by a series of fortunate coincidences, it got the opportunity to show what it could do, and started to build up a reputation, which steadily grew as the 14th Army showered thanks and congratulations on it for its bunker-busting-capability. But Higher Authority took a different view.
The policy at home was set in stone: the Vengeance was a mistake, get rid of it ASAP. Meanwhile allow no favourable publicity for it and belittle reports of its success. It wasn't difficult to "lose" bad news, the public at home were rightly concerned with the wonderful work of Bomber Command by night, and the 8th Air Force by day, and by Monty and his merry men chasing Rommel round the North African desert. Burma was "a far off land of which we know little" (Neville Chamberlain).
Some of this descended into spite (as when Wg Cdr Gill's recommendation for a DSO for his work on 84 with the Chindits was watered down to a DFC for his deed on a Spitfire, by AHQ, Delhi). So in the end the Vengeance went to its grave "unhonoured and unsung", and has remained so to this day.
Danny.
PS: In all fairness it must be admitted that, had the Japanese Army Command turned its "Oscars" loose on the VVs, there would've been no story - but they didn't.
D.
Google Chrome problems admin, not technical, fixed.
...why wasn't the RAF so minded with the VV? "Not Invented Here", perhaps?...
Then, by a series of fortunate coincidences, it got the opportunity to show what it could do, and started to build up a reputation, which steadily grew as the 14th Army showered thanks and congratulations on it for its bunker-busting-capability. But Higher Authority took a different view.
The policy at home was set in stone: the Vengeance was a mistake, get rid of it ASAP. Meanwhile allow no favourable publicity for it and belittle reports of its success. It wasn't difficult to "lose" bad news, the public at home were rightly concerned with the wonderful work of Bomber Command by night, and the 8th Air Force by day, and by Monty and his merry men chasing Rommel round the North African desert. Burma was "a far off land of which we know little" (Neville Chamberlain).
Some of this descended into spite (as when Wg Cdr Gill's recommendation for a DSO for his work on 84 with the Chindits was watered down to a DFC for his deed on a Spitfire, by AHQ, Delhi). So in the end the Vengeance went to its grave "unhonoured and unsung", and has remained so to this day.
Danny.
PS: In all fairness it must be admitted that, had the Japanese Army Command turned its "Oscars" loose on the VVs, there would've been no story - but they didn't.
D.
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We, and indeed History, should be grateful to Danny42C for bringing the VV into the light [albeit late in the day] on this and other Threads.
Indeed, there would be a case for the IWM to extract his various dissertations and combine them into a proper record of the VV in India/Burma.
Indeed, there would be a case for the IWM to extract his various dissertations and combine them into a proper record of the VV in India/Burma.
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On another professionals' forum, (nothing to do with aviation) about a year ago, a member had started a thread about little-known weapons of WWII.
It occurred to me that the Vengeance might be a reasonable subject to introduce.
With only the moderately reasonable knowledge that my research had turned up, with regard to its RAAF service, I contributed a little to that discussion.
The resident aggro idiot then charged in with the challenge .. "Yeah, well how did it go against the Zero, then?"
Some mothers do have 'em.
I was, perhaps unkindly, somewhat dismissive of him, saying that it did very well, thank you.
(As far as records show, the VV and the Zero never came to blows.)
If I was a nicer person, I could have taken him by the hand, etc...
.
It occurred to me that the Vengeance might be a reasonable subject to introduce.
With only the moderately reasonable knowledge that my research had turned up, with regard to its RAAF service, I contributed a little to that discussion.
The resident aggro idiot then charged in with the challenge .. "Yeah, well how did it go against the Zero, then?"
Some mothers do have 'em.
I was, perhaps unkindly, somewhat dismissive of him, saying that it did very well, thank you.
(As far as records show, the VV and the Zero never came to blows.)
If I was a nicer person, I could have taken him by the hand, etc...
.
Last edited by Stanwell; 20th Aug 2016 at 10:29.
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Stanwell and MPN11,
I am grateful for your kind words. But the IWM should be wary. Very early (1998), when Danny lashed out for a Canon "Starwriter", and started recording (on floppy disc) his long and weary tale (for benefit of friends and family only), he wrote: "Much of this is hearsay, I had no means then, and have no means now, of establishing the truth of what I write". I have repeated this on Post here. And I have often cautioned against your regarding me as any kind of an authority.
Now we have Google and the invaluable Wiki to fall back on - but are they always right ? ("What is Truth ?" said Pilate).
Danny.
I am grateful for your kind words. But the IWM should be wary. Very early (1998), when Danny lashed out for a Canon "Starwriter", and started recording (on floppy disc) his long and weary tale (for benefit of friends and family only), he wrote: "Much of this is hearsay, I had no means then, and have no means now, of establishing the truth of what I write". I have repeated this on Post here. And I have often cautioned against your regarding me as any kind of an authority.
Now we have Google and the invaluable Wiki to fall back on - but are they always right ? ("What is Truth ?" said Pilate).
Danny.