The RAF and Brexit

[Brian 48nav]

MODs

Please please please delete this thread - I for one, am fed up with hearing and reading about Brexit. There are plenty of forums for those who wish to engage in the discussion, could we at least have ONE where we can get away from what is becoming a tedious subject.

My mind was made up years before the referendum was 'granted'.

Once again Mods

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE SCRAP THIS THREAD!

[salad-dodger]

Seconded

The original question was okay, but never going to really work on here. The last time most people on this forum were in a crewroom was when Pontius was a pilot. One of them was even his assistant.

S-D

[Genstabler]

If you don't like a thread, don't read it. If you have something to say, say it. Unless it is offensive or illegal, don't sensor it.

[Pontius Navigator]

Must admit I am becoming more inclined to Out and I like Genstabler's analysis.

[Tankertrashnav]

The last time most people on this forum were in a crewroom was when Pontius was a pilot.

Or indeed a navigator

[Herod]

The last time most people on this forum were in a crewroom was when Pontius was a pilot.

As my user name indicates, I was operational long before Pontius even started flying training.

[Hangarshuffle]

Everyone I last spoke to in April who was ex FAA or still serving were voting to leave. This surprised* me at the time. Cant help but think the stayers are slowly losing ground.
Its all about the ever increasing immigration into our island, as seen and experienced at street level, something a lot of the great and the good just cannot grasp.
* I was surprised because I now think Service people are isolated-their working lives are so different to a civvies that they could be compared to living in a metaphorical bubble and may not always fully see or experience first hand the strain immigration inwards is bringing (IMHO).

[MSOCS]

It's pretty obvious that both camps are using very similar arguments to those taken by the yes/no sides of the Scottish Independence vote. We saw the No campaign were victorious, but only just. I believe this vote will be much closer and, having successfully divided and disenfranchised a huge swathe of the losing-vote populous, I'd be shocked if Cameron stayed, whatever the outcome.

I think both sides need to hone in on the issue that matters. For me it isn't about immigration but rather one of national pride, identity and Sovreignty. Economies veer and haul but sound governing will always see this country through such turbulence. I also tend to agree that Sarah Woolaston was probably a Remain tactical 'plant' to falter the Leave campaign with a fanfared defection. We saw a similar issue when Chris Christie moved to the Trump camp to falter the credibility of some of the more libertarian Republican runners, didn't we?

[salad-dodger]

Originally Posted by Genstabler

If you don't like a thread, don't read it. If you have something to say, say it. Unless it is offensive or illegal, don't sensor it.

That's a fair point, but the posts on this thread bear virtually no resemblance to the thread title. Most of the posts are by a bunch of knackered old farts with no experience of the current views of the RAF, or any other service. I fall into that group too (although not as old or as knackered as some), but offer no view (on this thread) on the referendum.

S-D

[Alber Ratman]

The plebs will vote out. We will leave the EU. We may get some trade agreements. Hopefully we will not have to suffer that complete buffoon as Prime Minister. House prices will fall as so many people will be screwed with negative equity and mortgages that they cannot afford great times ahead. Tories cutting the armed forces will still continue.

[PeterGee]

Originally Posted by Genstabler

A case to remain in the EU based largely on economic factors is unsustainable. Economic factors change, and anyway increased wealth does not necessarily bring more happiness or security. A case to leave based largely on fears of uncontrolled immigration is similarly flawed. Immigration can be controlled and when controlled is not damaging. The absolute key issue in this referendum, which will seal the future of our nation, is sovereignty and who ultimately decides what laws we are governed by.

Donald Tusk, the EU Council president, admitted that eurocrats 'obsessed' with the goal of a European superstate forget the people of Europe are not interested in the idea. Mr Tusk said the EU had 'failed to notice' that the goals of its officials differed widely from the ambitions of the people in different member states. EU politicians were responsible for creating 'a utopia of Europe without nation states' and that 'obsessed with the idea of instant and total integration, we failed to notice that ordinary people, the citizens of Europe, do not share our Euro-enthusiasm.'

It can't be made any clearer than that.

Some of the wisest words I have seen on the debate! Core for me is whether leaving gives us a better opportunity to make better in the long term by making policies that work for UK plc!

[The Old Fat One]

or me it isn't about immigration but rather one of national pride, identity and Sovreignty.

For you perhaps (and being a liberal democratic, I respect your view) but absolutely not for me. National pride....yuk.

For me it is about democracy, security, prosperity....and not for us old shags, but for those that coming behind us.

I'm just back from central Europe, where I visited a number of military museums. It's sobering experience, reading and looking at what Europeans did to each other in the name of nationalism, racism and facism. With our little englander mentality we forget the war torn slaughter of centuries of state-centric power in OUR continent and we continue to imbue the English Channel with magical powers we think will keep us separate and safe. A notion that is laughably absurd in the modern world.

We not only forget that these conflicts continue (Ukraine); we also ignore the constant dynamic forces that introduce new threats to stability and security (mass migration, religious extremism, terrorism).

Along with all the other global communities, the EU represents human progress. It happened out of necessity - to bring nation states together and to find common ground to exist in harmony.

I do not know (and I suspect nobody does) if we will be more prosperous in or out of the EU. I freely admit that there are many elements of EU democracy that are flawed - so what? Functional democracy is always subject to compromise in any organisation. The UK has a constitutional monarchy and a House of Lords - wtf have they got to do with democracy?

Vote how you want...the likelihood is the outcome will make far less difference to our day to day lives, compared to our own individual efforts, talents and characteristics.

But if you are intent in shoving human progress in to reverse gear, find a better reason than "national pride" ffs.

Peace.

[engineer(retard)]

The Ukrainian civil war was initiated by the EU expansionist policies and the constant dynamic tensions such as mass migration and terrorism are not being tackled by the EU, they prefer to stick their head in the sand.

[MSOCS]

Oh TOFO, please. If you harbour some paranoia that our country leaving this ''marriage' will precipitate inter-European war, you're no better than the other fear-mongers. Like all marriages, some stay good, some go bad but most start out with the right ideals. I think we've given this marriage plenty of chances but it's now rotten and in many ways abusive, so time to go. There are plenty of us "plebs" who think so.

The hegemonist ideals of Brussels are not in the UK's best interests. We've traded successfully for hundreds of years on our own backs. To think it all disappears after the divorce is pathetic.

[Willard Whyte]

The plebs will vote out.

As will many who are not so plebeian.

[yellowtriumph]

Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator

Tourist, indeed not. Epi village used to be the preserve of goats. Now road, pavement and curbs all block paved. Street lamps all new, modern and uniform. Motorway from Paphos to Larnaca. Two modern airports. Spain, beautiful gardens in Cadiz, La Coruna paved frontage to harbour etc.

Admittedly these are probably EU funded infrastructure projects, but whose fault that we don't have the same? J bet the dead hand of British officialdom might have something to do with it.

EU funding, hmm,

Please don't forget the 'EU" only has one source of funding - us the public. It's not their money their spending it's yours and mine (and the German's citizens too at the moment).

No-one else is paying for it and if we stopped shovelling over 350m pounds a week to Brussels we might have some nice roads and pavements here too.

[Melchett01]

Originally Posted by The Old Fat One

For you perhaps (and being a liberal democratic, I respect your view) but absolutely not for me. National pride....yuk.

For me it is about democracy, security, prosperity....and not for us old shags, but for those that coming behind us.

I'm not entirely sure I'd say the EU has brought any of those, and I doubt that would change going forward. From elections that were re-run to get the 'right' result, democratically elected governments replaced by technocrats and let's not forget the intent right from the outset to hoodwink Europe's population into a political project masquerading as economics as written by Jean Monnet in a letter to a friend in 1952 shortly before becoming what was then effectively the ECSC's President:

“Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation.”

As for security, you only have to look at the EU's response to Libya, migration in general, response to Putin to see that EU security is predicated on soft power, long lunches and conferences in various chateaux around Europe but with nothing to back it up. They spend 4x more on EU administration than they do on Defence and further security collectivisation would likely see that fall further as member states who don't want to spend on Defence see the opportunity to hide and let others pick up the tab.

And prosperity. Economically, aside from a few bright spots of well run companies or those with sufficient critical mass, the continued reliance on QE to keep the political project on life support - it's not about individual prosperity, it's economics as the enabler for politics - and the severe economic structural issues that only deepen the north-south divide both suggest that economically the EU has a long way to go to achieve credibility let alone success.

I really would like to be a good European, working closely with partners and allies across the Continent, but I wouldn't vote to join the EU now if that was the question. I don't think the EU in its current format is reformable and I think in many EU circles the British name is now so toxic that we have limited influence anyway amongst 'the good Europeans' and even a good idea can be damaged with a British tag. If we were to come out and the pressure of UK membership was relieved, I almost see it as a chance to be that good partner, playing a better role in supporting allies and friends without the pressure and toxicity of the current debate over shadowing everything.

[Union Jack]

I don't think the EU in its current format is reformable and I think in many EU circles the British name is now so toxic that we have limited influence anyway amongst 'the good Europeans' and even a good idea can be damaged with a British tag. If we were to come out and the pressure of UK membership was relieved, I almost see it as a chance to be that good partner, playing a better role in supporting allies and friends without the pressure and toxicity of the current debate over shadowing everything. - Melchett

An extremely interesting and thought-provoking reflection.

Jack

[76fan]

Pontius:- "What we have seen in France, Spain, Germany, Cyprus and Madeira is bbc better maintained infrastructure and cheaper goods in shops. Goods in bbc shops are frequently cheaper."

Are you suggesting that if we stay in everything will suddenly improve in the UK? That's a bit like those saying "we know there are lots of things wrong with with the EU but if we leave we cannot change things". I would be interested to know just how we have managed to change anything in the EU whilst we have been in so far. Takes me back to a conversation I had in about 1969 when my landlord said that if we joined the Common Market we could pay the same for a bottle of wine as they do in France!

The country has been misled ever since Edward Heath betrayed us, this is probably our last chance to regain control over the country in which we were once proud to serve.

I am ex R.N.

[Heathrow Harry]

do you listen to someone who picks their football and leaves the club in huff??

Hell no - you hope they fall off a high building and soon..................