Wg Cdr Arthur Gill, OBE, DFC
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NigG and MPN11 (your #88 and #89),
Stands to reason. I think your brain atrophies with disuse, like all the other organs of your body. Since getting on line in the summer of 2011, I'm sure I've benefited immensely in that respect. I have a theory (all right, a conjecture !), that if all who reach pensionable age without having already joined the ranks of the "silver surfers" were provided with a basic computer (and compelled, as a condition of receiving their State pensions, to pass a simple course of instruction in how to use it), the incidence of late Alzheimers could be much reduced and a great deal of misery (and money) saved. And many "declining years" greatly enriched.
This could not solve the problem of the early onsets, admittedly, and in any case the requirement would die out in a generation or two, as all modern children appear to be born with a built-in degree in IT !
Many a true word is spoken in jest ! "Driving aeroplanes" is, basically, really just a physical skill, like playing a piano or riding a bike. You learn it, it becomes automatic and "you never forget ". Some people take to it like a duck to water, some will never be able to do it, but most can do so (given time). Of course it involves a great deal of brainwork, but that is incidental to the core physical control of an aircraft.
As for ATC, it may not exactly be "a high-speed three-dimensional game of chess", but you need your wits about you all the time.
(Tongue in cheek),
Danny.
...There was a programme on TV about dementia recently. They were stressing the importance of 'use it or lose it'... being chatty, your brain cells have been well-exercised all your life.
Interesting and remarkable!...
Interesting and remarkable!...
This could not solve the problem of the early onsets, admittedly, and in any case the requirement would die out in a generation or two, as all modern children appear to be born with a built-in degree in IT !
... things got better when he moved on from driving aeroplanes to controlling them ...that's when the brain-cells get some good exercise...
As for ATC, it may not exactly be "a high-speed three-dimensional game of chess", but you need your wits about you all the time.
(Tongue in cheek),
Danny.
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I defer to those with extensive flying experience on whether it is, indeed, just a physical skill. I draw a strong distinction between the 'simple' mechanics of making an aircraft go "up diddley up" etc and the actual 'operation' of the aircraft in whatever role it may be. I have always thought the latter aspect was what really constituted 'flying' ... e.g. leading a Harrier 4-ship at low level in sh1t weather to strike a target, where the stick/rudder bit is a subliminal adjunct to all the planning, navigation, threat analysis, target acquisition, weapon aiming/firing, defensive manoeuvring and getting the formation home again in one piece.
As to ATC, I have oft described it as something of an art form rather than a mechanical skill. You can be taught the basic procedures [see previous para] but unless you are wired in a certain way you can never hope to be fully effective in that 4-dimensional game. I do believe that controllers perceive things slightly differently, in a time/space context.
As to ATC, I have oft described it as something of an art form rather than a mechanical skill. You can be taught the basic procedures [see previous para] but unless you are wired in a certain way you can never hope to be fully effective in that 4-dimensional game. I do believe that controllers perceive things slightly differently, in a time/space context.
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MPN11,
Exactly so ! As it was put to us during the war: "We will teach you to fly an aircraft up to Wings standard. From OTU onward, you will learn to use a particular aircraft (of our choice) as a weapon in which to kill or be killed". As you rightly say, the simple (well, most of the time !) task of handling the thing is but a "subliminal adjunct" to the main duty.
Four Dimensions (inc Time ?) - I had enough trouble with three !,
Danny
...where the stick/rudder bit is a subliminal adjunct to all the planning, navigation, ........
Four Dimensions (inc Time ?) - I had enough trouble with three !,
Danny
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Four Dimensions (inc Time ?) - I had enough trouble with three !
In the Joint Civ/Mil Ops room at LATCC, 'they' were doing everything with flight strips [with times] augmented by radar. So if I had Mil traffic crossing the mayhem of the SouthEast corner of the UK FIR, I needed at least a rough estimate for [say] crossing Red 1 at Clacton. Fortunately, the average Mil jet cruised at about the same speed, and conveniently [on our big flat-top radar displays] the standard chinagraph pencil represented about 5 minutes flying time ... et voila!
Images HERE at LWD24 and LWD25 ... and lots for me to read, having discovered that website!!
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Seeing the mention of W/Cdr Jeudwine in earlier posts reminded me that I had a copy of his biography 'Global Warrior' in my pile of 'books to read'. Have now read it; a really interesting story of an unusual officer who chose to lead his men rather than drive them, as his superiors appear to have preferred. Wing Commander Gill writes a very generous Foreward to the book which clearly sets out the criteria for inclusion in the crew of the 'Scorpion'.
Would anyone have any idea how big 'Scorpion' was? Certainly big enough to have the crew divided into two 'watches' and carry what sounds like a substantial quantity of rations (including beer!)
Highly recommend 'Global Warrior'.
Would anyone have any idea how big 'Scorpion' was? Certainly big enough to have the crew divided into two 'watches' and carry what sounds like a substantial quantity of rations (including beer!)
Highly recommend 'Global Warrior'.
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Now that I have the book in front of me, I can clear-up some discussion/speculation that was made in the earliest pages of this Thread. It was proposed that the aircrew turfed the groundstaff out of their boat and grabbed it to make their escape, leaving the groundstaff to their fate. That's a horrible slander!
The Japs were in the process of invading Java. Jeudwine and his party of 84 Sqn personnel began their escape at midnight from Tjilatjap harbour with two lifeboats, being towed by a launch. There were 30 members of the squadron in each lifeboat plus 5 in the launch. Jeudwine was one of only two who knew how to sail, the other one was Plt Off Streatfield who skippered the second lifeboat. The launch's engine broke down after two hours and the lifeboat sails were tried out, but these didn't perform as the boats were so over-loaded. So they rowed to a nearby island, a lifeboat now towing the launch. Jeudwine anchored his boat off-shore. Streatfeild reckoned he could see a passage through the reefs to get to shore, but when trying it, the surf picked up the launch and lifeboat, tearing out their hulls on the rocks. Everyone swam ashore and salvaged the stores from the two wrecks.
Jeudwine decided that the best plan was to take the surviving boat with a crew of 13, leaving everyone else to hide ashore for two months and await the arrival of a submarine that would be sent from Australia. He selected his crew, choosing those with useful skills, most being Australians as they had a chance to get home. He hoped it would take 16 days to get from Java to Australia... it took 6 weeks. They had to ration their limited supplies of food and drink, and these became tighter when cans were found to have been spoilt through corrosion. They met with storms and days of calm under the baking sun. Repeatedly repairs to the rudder failed and it broke away from the boat. The most worrying moment was when a Japanese submarine surfaced nearby, the captain surveying them through his binoculars, with the vessels guns being trained on them. Mercifully, he had no blood lust for Westerners and he went on his way. Throughout, morale never seriously faltered, thanks to Jeudwine.
The shore party, left behind, hung-on for six weeks and then got in touch with local Dutchmen (Java being a Dutch colony). They gave them a meal at the local jail, then handed them over to the Japanese. After which they had three and a half years as POWs, roughly a third of them dying in the process. The submarine, sent from Australia, of course found no trace of them at the beach.
As you say, Olympus, 'Global Warrior' is a very worthwhile read. I guess it can be bought, or ordered via an inter-library loan. ISBN 0-9536418-0-5
Last edited by NigG; 17th Sep 2016 at 07:52.
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MPN11 (your #104),
Recalls my method of navigation round the Indian subcontinent 70+ years ago - only I used the end of my thumb-joint (represented 8 miles run on the map in use). Never failed ! (and you couldn't leave it behind).
Looked the pics, thought: "there but for the grace of God......."
Danny.
...the standard chinagraph pencil represented about 5 minutes flying time ... et voila!..
...Images HERE at LWD24 and LWD25 ... and lots for me to read, having discovered that website!! ...
Danny.
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NigG (your #106),
As I said in my #30: "I do not believe this for one moment, and I hope nobody else will".
Recalls the lifeboats after the sinking of the "Titanic", where Third(?) Officer Lightoller was (I recall reading): "the only seaman of the lot", and got a sail up on his boat.
Would be interesting to know how they survived.
A fascinating story, indeed,
Danny.
...That's a horrible slander!...
...Jeudwine was one of only two who knew how to sail...
...The shore party, left behind, hung-on for six weeks...
A fascinating story, indeed,
Danny.
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Last edited by NigG; 5th Jun 2016 at 17:17.
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NigG,
Yes, it must have been a horrendous business. I was fortunate as I landed in India after the situation had stabilised the previous year, and everything West of Chittagong was more or less "normal".
It would be deemed to be beyond the limits today, I hope !
Danny.
Yes, it must have been a horrendous business. I was fortunate as I landed in India after the situation had stabilised the previous year, and everything West of Chittagong was more or less "normal".
...knew the type of people, knew how morale was and had a clear idea of what sort of behaviour would be deemed to be beyond the limits...
Danny.
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I've come across a couple of stories that illustrate the pastoral side of Arthur's job when he was 84 Sqn commander in India.
He was once petitioned by a very agitated Corporal. The man had written to both his girlfriend and to his wife and put the respective letters in the wrong envelope. Neither the girlfriend nor the wife knew about the other and the Corporal was certain that his wife would go berserk if she knew about his infidelity. Arthur immediately went in pursuit of the letters, first at unit level then at the Forces Post Office, Calcutta. Unfortunately it was too late. He noted that the Corporal survived the Burma campaign, but rather doubted whether he could have survived his return to the UK!
Despite his gentlemanly disposition, Arthur was in favour of new members of 84 Squadron undergoing an initiation ceremony. The idea being that a bit of collective fun would help the newly-formed unit to gel together... and the new-comer would get the idea that he had joined a 'Squadron with a difference'. An uproarious party would be thrown, at which the costumed ‘Mayor of Shaibah’ would welcome the newcomer, who would then have to kiss the lipsticked ‘Lady Mayoress’. All would sing the ‘Shaibah Blues’, and other ribald songs, the newcomer having the opportunity to demonstrate his talents by singing a verse unaccompanied!
There was insufficient alcohol available for one such party, the beer ration being meager. So Arthur sent an aircraft to pick-up extra supplies from Dumdum. These cases of ‘Lilly’s Gin’ went down well at the party. However, the next day, a third of the squadron’s personnel discovered they were either fully or partially blind... and the squadron was certainly no longer 'operational'. Out of his depth, the Medical Officer consulted an Indian physician who identified the drink as being made from the Tari palm – otherwise known as a local brew called 'Toddy'. After 48 hours the ill-effects wore-off, greatly to Arthur’s relief!
He was once petitioned by a very agitated Corporal. The man had written to both his girlfriend and to his wife and put the respective letters in the wrong envelope. Neither the girlfriend nor the wife knew about the other and the Corporal was certain that his wife would go berserk if she knew about his infidelity. Arthur immediately went in pursuit of the letters, first at unit level then at the Forces Post Office, Calcutta. Unfortunately it was too late. He noted that the Corporal survived the Burma campaign, but rather doubted whether he could have survived his return to the UK!
Despite his gentlemanly disposition, Arthur was in favour of new members of 84 Squadron undergoing an initiation ceremony. The idea being that a bit of collective fun would help the newly-formed unit to gel together... and the new-comer would get the idea that he had joined a 'Squadron with a difference'. An uproarious party would be thrown, at which the costumed ‘Mayor of Shaibah’ would welcome the newcomer, who would then have to kiss the lipsticked ‘Lady Mayoress’. All would sing the ‘Shaibah Blues’, and other ribald songs, the newcomer having the opportunity to demonstrate his talents by singing a verse unaccompanied!
There was insufficient alcohol available for one such party, the beer ration being meager. So Arthur sent an aircraft to pick-up extra supplies from Dumdum. These cases of ‘Lilly’s Gin’ went down well at the party. However, the next day, a third of the squadron’s personnel discovered they were either fully or partially blind... and the squadron was certainly no longer 'operational'. Out of his depth, the Medical Officer consulted an Indian physician who identified the drink as being made from the Tari palm – otherwise known as a local brew called 'Toddy'. After 48 hours the ill-effects wore-off, greatly to Arthur’s relief!
Last edited by NigG; 31st May 2016 at 19:03.
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NigG,
So the Squadron sent an aircraft up to Dum-Dum for the hooch. Prudent enquiry there would have revealed that there would be no imported genuine gin left (or at least none for sale), but that the Calcutta British firm of Carew's * made a drinkable substitute (and also a "Rosa" rum), available all over the subcontinent. All other locally produced spirits were to be avoided like the plague (including Lilliy's Gin !), only to be used (in place of unobtainable meths) to fire up pressure kerosene lamps and the like. They were lucky the stuff didn't kill anyone !
Don't know where they got any beer from, no "India Pale Ale" or the like came out from UK now of course. There was beer brewed at some Hill Stations ("Murree" was one) but the stuff wouldn't travel.
All in all, my introduction to 110 Squadron was a far more gentle affair, I'm happy to say !
Note *: Googled, still in business out there (now part of United Spirits Ltd).
Danny.
...The idea being that a bit of collective fun would help the newly-formed unit to gel together... and the new-comer would get the idea that he had joined a 'Squadron with a difference'...
Don't know where they got any beer from, no "India Pale Ale" or the like came out from UK now of course. There was beer brewed at some Hill Stations ("Murree" was one) but the stuff wouldn't travel.
All in all, my introduction to 110 Squadron was a far more gentle affair, I'm happy to say !
Note *: Googled, still in business out there (now part of United Spirits Ltd).
Danny.
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NigG,
So the Squadron sent an aircraft up to Dum-Dum for the hooch. Prudent enquiry there would have revealed that there would be no imported genuine gin left (or at least none for sale), but that the Calcutta British firm of Carew's * made a drinkable substitute (and also a "Rosa" rum), available all over the subcontinent. All other locally produced spirits were to be avoided like the plague (including Lilliy's Gin !), only to be used (in place of unobtainable meths) to fire up pressure kerosene lamps and the like. They were lucky the stuff didn't kill anyone !
Don't know where they got any beer from, no "India Pale Ale" or the like came out from UK now of course. There was beer brewed at some Hill Stations ("Murree" was one) but the stuff wouldn't travel.
All in all, my introduction to 110 Squadron was a far more gentle affair, I'm happy to say !
Note *: Googled, still in business out there (now part of United Spirits Ltd).
Danny.
So the Squadron sent an aircraft up to Dum-Dum for the hooch. Prudent enquiry there would have revealed that there would be no imported genuine gin left (or at least none for sale), but that the Calcutta British firm of Carew's * made a drinkable substitute (and also a "Rosa" rum), available all over the subcontinent. All other locally produced spirits were to be avoided like the plague (including Lilliy's Gin !), only to be used (in place of unobtainable meths) to fire up pressure kerosene lamps and the like. They were lucky the stuff didn't kill anyone !
Don't know where they got any beer from, no "India Pale Ale" or the like came out from UK now of course. There was beer brewed at some Hill Stations ("Murree" was one) but the stuff wouldn't travel.
All in all, my introduction to 110 Squadron was a far more gentle affair, I'm happy to say !
Note *: Googled, still in business out there (now part of United Spirits Ltd).
Danny.
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One man in his life plays many parts.......
NigG,
Can't speak for modern day Pakistan: if you flaunt the stuff in public now I suppose you run the risk of stoning, flogging or beheading, but as their armed services there follow (as I'm told) inherited British customs to the n th degree, I hardly think the President would be toasted in lemonade or CocaCola on Guest Nights!
Then all was part of British India and a more liberal spirit prevailed. Chota and Burra Pegs were part of the social scene, and a "Collins" or two at sundown slaked the thirst as well as improving one's view on life.
Beer ? Quetta was 4,000 ft amsl - almost a Hill Station - and theoretically should have been able to brew beer. After all, if you want to distil hooch, you must start with a fermented liquor, and what is beer, after all ?
Gained a little inside knowledge by force of circumstance. Mess Secretary at Cholaveram (Pilot's Brevet: p.151 #3011), Bar Officer (all right, "Wines Member") at Thornaby (ibid p.189 #3765). 13+ years (after retirement from RAF) with H.M.C&E as VAT inspector, specialised in parting errant publicans from their ill-gotten (VAT) gains.
It was a living.
Danny.
...Since Quetta is in modern day Pakistan, it can be imagined that there wasn't a lot of local hooch around...
Then all was part of British India and a more liberal spirit prevailed. Chota and Burra Pegs were part of the social scene, and a "Collins" or two at sundown slaked the thirst as well as improving one's view on life.
Beer ? Quetta was 4,000 ft amsl - almost a Hill Station - and theoretically should have been able to brew beer. After all, if you want to distil hooch, you must start with a fermented liquor, and what is beer, after all ?
...It's obvious you were an authority on matters of drink!...
It was a living.
Danny.
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Gained a little inside knowledge by force of circumstance. Mess Secretary at Cholaveram (Pilot's Brevet: p.151 #3011), Bar Officer (all right, "Wines Member") at Thornaby (ibid p.189 #3765). 13+ years (after retirement from RAF) with H.M.C&E as VAT inspector, specialised in parting errant publicans from their ill-gotten (VAT) gains. It was a living.
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Nig G,
No, not really. My last flying entry in April '43 was on 30th. So he could not have signed before that - but we do not know how long after that (the certifying officers do not date their signatures). That much is certain. Flt Lt Don Ritchie (Acting CO) signs at the end of May, so he was probably far away by then.
I was at Madhaiganj (W.Bengal) the whole time (that is a fact, too).
Q: Where was he in the April ? Clearly he was up in Madhaiganj at the end of the month, but why ?
I think we'll never know the answer now. Best forget it.
No, we were territorial animals. H.P.Bulmers is in Hereford: my patch was East Cleveland and the North York Moors (some nice cosy pubs up there !)
Danny.
... I wonder if you've resolved the mystery of why Arthur signed your log book...
I was at Madhaiganj (W.Bengal) the whole time (that is a fact, too).
...His log book shows an air display at St Thomas Mount (not far away) [Madras] 1 Apr '43, otherwise there's no flying shown for April...
I think we'll never know the answer now. Best forget it.
...Arthur worked for HP Bulmer after he retired and built-up/oversaw their licenced premises. I do hope he didn't run foul of you...
Danny.
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Nig G,
No, not really. My last flying entry in April '43 was on 30th. So he could not have signed before that - but we do not know how long after that (the certifying officers do not date their signatures). That much is certain. Flt Lt Don Ritchie (Acting CO) signs at the end of May, so he was probably far away by then.
I was at Madhaiganj (W.Bengal) the whole time (that is a fact, too).
Q: Where was he in the April ? Clearly he was up in Madhaiganj at the end of the month, but why ?
I think we'll never know the answer now. Best forget it.
No, not really. My last flying entry in April '43 was on 30th. So he could not have signed before that - but we do not know how long after that (the certifying officers do not date their signatures). That much is certain. Flt Lt Don Ritchie (Acting CO) signs at the end of May, so he was probably far away by then.
I was at Madhaiganj (W.Bengal) the whole time (that is a fact, too).
Q: Where was he in the April ? Clearly he was up in Madhaiganj at the end of the month, but why ?
I think we'll never know the answer now. Best forget it.
However! I've been in communication with Savimosh, who, of course has written a book on the history of 110 Sqn, and whose Dad was a Nav/WopAG with them, flying Vengeances. Anyway, she came up with some dates from the logbook of someone else in 110 Sqn that indicated that he flew with 'Sqn Ldr Gill' on certain dates. I checked these against Arthur Gill's logbook and they didn't tally.
In the meantime Savimosh, back in Canada, was apparently relaxing with a glass of wine and mulling things over. She got out the book she'd written on 110 Sqn and checked the period in question. Lo and behold... there was a Sqn Ldr J G Gill who was CO of 110 Sqn from 5 Feb to 20 Sep '43. Thus we have Sqn Ldr A M Gill (my father) commanding 84 Sqn, and Sqn Ldr J G Gill commanding 110 Sqn! Both men in India at the same time and commanding squadrons equipped with the Vengeance... bit of a coincidence, of course.
You said your log book was signed by Sqn Ldr Gill in late April '43... so the big question is.... was this J G Gill or A M Gill? If initials aren't shown, then note that my father's writing was neat and quite elegant. I confess I'm utterly on tenterhooks... trivial though the matter might be!
Last edited by NigG; 16th Jun 2016 at 16:31.
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NigG,
Shot up bolt upright when I read your #118.
Not trivial ! Dragged logbook off shelf and checked. Signature is anything but "neat and quite elegant" - a real "doctor's signature", in fact. Oh why can't I learn to scan and paste ! The "Gill" is readable enough, but it is preceded by a sloping, oval loop, which is far more likely to represent a "J" rather than a "A", and certainly not an "M". My own signature (in those days) commenced with a "J" flourish, and it is not unlike a smaller version of that.
Will PM you shortly with a request on this subject.
How could we have got a new CO and I not remember it ? My only excuse is that they came and went with bewildering rapidity. In my log, I have in succesive months from January '43: R.C. Lindrell (?) Flt Lt for...; R.C. Topley Flt Lt for...; ?. Gill; D.J. Ritchie Flt Lt for...; J.D. Hedley F/O (!) for...; R.C. Topley (again); R.C. Topley (again); and again; and again; and lastly R.F. Penny in mid November (when I went across to 8 IAF).
But I know there was a Sqn Ldr Lambert in February (?), for it was he who put me up for my Commission. Presumably he didn't stay long enough to sign anybody's log book (or couldn't be bothered !) And a newly joined Sergeant has little interest in the CO's office, apart from keeping well out of it, for a summons usually bodes no good..
Cheers, Danny.
Shot up bolt upright when I read your #118.
...You said your log book was signed by Sqn Ldr Gill in late April '43... so the big question is.... was this J G Gill or A M Gill? If initials aren't shown, then note that my father's writing was neat and quite elegant. I confess I'm utterly on tenterhooks... trivial though the matter might be!...
Will PM you shortly with a request on this subject.
How could we have got a new CO and I not remember it ? My only excuse is that they came and went with bewildering rapidity. In my log, I have in succesive months from January '43: R.C. Lindrell (?) Flt Lt for...; R.C. Topley Flt Lt for...; ?. Gill; D.J. Ritchie Flt Lt for...; J.D. Hedley F/O (!) for...; R.C. Topley (again); R.C. Topley (again); and again; and again; and lastly R.F. Penny in mid November (when I went across to 8 IAF).
But I know there was a Sqn Ldr Lambert in February (?), for it was he who put me up for my Commission. Presumably he didn't stay long enough to sign anybody's log book (or couldn't be bothered !) And a newly joined Sergeant has little interest in the CO's office, apart from keeping well out of it, for a summons usually bodes no good..
Cheers, Danny.
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Danny
Ha! Yes, I have a grim memory of the CO's office in Minden. I and one other, marched in front of his desk, the night before having 'settled' a spot of 'difference', outside on the lawn, during a Mess night. (Still have the scar). The (alcaholic) pugnacity of youth ...'nough said!
Excellent, Danny... the mystery of the 'Gill' signature, now happily resolved, and closed. Quite an extraordinary coincidence, I have to say.
By the way, I've been through earlier pages of this Thread, page 2 onwards, and added a photo where it gives context to my Post. Makes the Thread a bit more engaging for anyone who might want to read it through from scratch. Some are photos you won't have seen before... including one of my father in more recent years (page 3).
Ha! Yes, I have a grim memory of the CO's office in Minden. I and one other, marched in front of his desk, the night before having 'settled' a spot of 'difference', outside on the lawn, during a Mess night. (Still have the scar). The (alcaholic) pugnacity of youth ...'nough said!
Excellent, Danny... the mystery of the 'Gill' signature, now happily resolved, and closed. Quite an extraordinary coincidence, I have to say.
By the way, I've been through earlier pages of this Thread, page 2 onwards, and added a photo where it gives context to my Post. Makes the Thread a bit more engaging for anyone who might want to read it through from scratch. Some are photos you won't have seen before... including one of my father in more recent years (page 3).
Last edited by NigG; 5th Jun 2016 at 19:45.