USAAC deliberate downing of 2 RAF Liberators
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If that information was not shared, and operations (both RAF & USAAF) persisted without deconfliction/coordination, the result is almost inevitable.
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"...found an airborne radar target..would have shot it down." (in whatever tense) The fighter pilot wouldn't have been shooting at a radar target but an aircraft located by radar, according to one account, after multiple passes and the Japanese had very few four-engined types. On the other hand, conspiracy sells and much hinges on the loaded word "deliberate" in the title.
I cannot imagine an American pilot identifying a Liberator with RAF markings deliberately shooting it down unless he felt that it was a captured aircraft being flown clandestinely.
As the Black Widow was a specialised night fighting aircraft I can believe that it was not identified in daylight.
As the Black Widow was a specialised night fighting aircraft I can believe that it was not identified in daylight.
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Taking up Clean32’s observation at #13, all of the eleven aircraft might indeed have been heading for the same place. For each aircraft the target is not specified – just named as DZ in all cases. All we get from the 501 is a selection of different routes to various points on the Indo-China border. I would have thought that the 501’s author would have numbered the DZs if they were different, even if he was concerned not to reveal their locations. Still I would agree that to drop all eleven eggs into one basket would be surprising and very different from the practice established with the Resistance in France.
I note that KH277 “Z” crashed well away from any USAAF operations, about half way between its base at Digri and its first turning point. It fell either after only a couple of hours flight or near to the end of its sortie – we do not know which. If it fell due to a night fighter attack, it kept airborne for several hours afterwards. In that case, with two W/Ops on board, one would have thought the aircraft would have informed the squadron of the trouble it was in.
you missed the point the P61s were working out of there area, and did so with out informing any one. they did so because the japanese were offering No air resistance to the bombers the p61 were originally assigned to escort to Japan
the crash sites of Both 277 and 215 are not far from what was a large village or is today a small town. the bodies were recovered by the locals
I cannot imagine an American pilot identifying a Liberator with RAF markings deliberately shooting it down
The Germans used captured allied aircraft for clandestine operations, did the Japanese?
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LOOK GUYs forget about the ID of aircraft at night.
anyone who has lived close to the equator knows that sunset is lights out, in there winter. its Dark Dark black.
the P61 shot down a ****load of there own mainly c47 aircraft.
so just forget about that line ok
anyone who has lived close to the equator knows that sunset is lights out, in there winter. its Dark Dark black.
the P61 shot down a ****load of there own mainly c47 aircraft.
so just forget about that line ok
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Clean32 #27: I cheerfully acknowledge your greater acquaintance with this material.
Quite right about F541 - sorry to persist with the mistake. I found it on a 358 Sqn site where it is easier to read than in your transcription at thread #12.
I would not have known that the locations were grid rather than Lat/Long – I would be interested to have a link to something that decodes the grids we are discussing. I have plotted each of the locations as Lat/Long and note that the last location before “DZ” seems in each case to be exactly on the border of the then Indo-China. I would have thought that agents already planted would be nearer to civilisation than that.
You say that the last location before “DZ” in the F541 record is the location of the DZ. How to explain that the routes, in the case of aircraft “G”, “A” and “X”, are recorded as such a location to the DZ and back to the same location ?
You refer earlier to KH 217; for the record I take it you mean KH215 “K” in each case.
“V force, get real”. I am uncertain what is the point of that remark. You are not thinking of big white bombers are you ? I was of course guessing as to the actual administrative arrangements at this time. During Japanese occupation, the Chins were almost entirely loyal to the British and the quasi-guerrilla V Force units provided the necessary contact with the empire. Although, as the XIV Army advanced into the plains, V Force units were meant to keep ahead of the advance, they were manned very largely by officers and auxiliaries acquainted with only the one locality. They stayed put and probably stood in while the peacetime administration was being restored.
That is the context in which the note in the F541 about the crash site of KH277 will have been made. I think it was always meant for F541 to be written and submitted quickly, so that real information was not lost through squadron untidiness. I infer that the report of the crash site came in quickly. That speaks of some admin link reaching into Kalemyo (as it was then) – if you do not like “V Force” you can guess for yourself what there was instead.
“ … not far from what was a large village”. In the Chin Hills, we are talking of fearsome terrain. If, as I suggest, this was a case of controlled flight into the terrain, then “not far” might be a few miles to the West and several thousand feet vertically in deep jungle. Nevertheless while our administration will have been very keen to recover and bury the aircrew, the locals will no doubt have been equally interested in spiriting away the containers. The wreckage could have been inspected if any of the visiting party was interested.
Conventional air radio might be bad in the Burma war, but HF contact would make up for that, as we found in Malaya in my time on Canberras. I assumed that HF would be standard in B-24s and only wondered whether aircraft transmissions were discouraged or even forbidden for security reasons.
By the way I note from Wikipedia that the USAAF had B-24s operating out of China from March 1944.
Quite right about F541 - sorry to persist with the mistake. I found it on a 358 Sqn site where it is easier to read than in your transcription at thread #12.
I would not have known that the locations were grid rather than Lat/Long – I would be interested to have a link to something that decodes the grids we are discussing. I have plotted each of the locations as Lat/Long and note that the last location before “DZ” seems in each case to be exactly on the border of the then Indo-China. I would have thought that agents already planted would be nearer to civilisation than that.
You say that the last location before “DZ” in the F541 record is the location of the DZ. How to explain that the routes, in the case of aircraft “G”, “A” and “X”, are recorded as such a location to the DZ and back to the same location ?
You refer earlier to KH 217; for the record I take it you mean KH215 “K” in each case.
“V force, get real”. I am uncertain what is the point of that remark. You are not thinking of big white bombers are you ? I was of course guessing as to the actual administrative arrangements at this time. During Japanese occupation, the Chins were almost entirely loyal to the British and the quasi-guerrilla V Force units provided the necessary contact with the empire. Although, as the XIV Army advanced into the plains, V Force units were meant to keep ahead of the advance, they were manned very largely by officers and auxiliaries acquainted with only the one locality. They stayed put and probably stood in while the peacetime administration was being restored.
That is the context in which the note in the F541 about the crash site of KH277 will have been made. I think it was always meant for F541 to be written and submitted quickly, so that real information was not lost through squadron untidiness. I infer that the report of the crash site came in quickly. That speaks of some admin link reaching into Kalemyo (as it was then) – if you do not like “V Force” you can guess for yourself what there was instead.
“ … not far from what was a large village”. In the Chin Hills, we are talking of fearsome terrain. If, as I suggest, this was a case of controlled flight into the terrain, then “not far” might be a few miles to the West and several thousand feet vertically in deep jungle. Nevertheless while our administration will have been very keen to recover and bury the aircrew, the locals will no doubt have been equally interested in spiriting away the containers. The wreckage could have been inspected if any of the visiting party was interested.
Conventional air radio might be bad in the Burma war, but HF contact would make up for that, as we found in Malaya in my time on Canberras. I assumed that HF would be standard in B-24s and only wondered whether aircraft transmissions were discouraged or even forbidden for security reasons.
By the way I note from Wikipedia that the USAAF had B-24s operating out of China from March 1944.
It happens. A RAF Spitfire shot down a C-54 believing it to be a Condor.
And the circumstantial evidence of missing USAAF records doesn't prove deliberate intent - it could equally be embarrassment at an inadvertent error by the P-61 crew. Barring a deathbed confession, we will never know the exact facts.
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Quote:
Your clausal verb should be in the imperfect subjunctive tense.
Qué? Sorry.
Your clausal verb should be in the imperfect subjunctive tense.
Qué? Sorry.
Obviously this is not ARRSE, since there are no swears. </pedant>
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Clean32: further to my #30.
As to the location references, I forgot to mention my belief (which might be fact) that grid mapping has always been denoted by Eastings followed by Northings, while Lat/Long is always Northings followed by Eastings. I am virtually certain, on this count, that the turning points in the F541 were in Lat/Long.
As to the location references, I forgot to mention my belief (which might be fact) that grid mapping has always been denoted by Eastings followed by Northings, while Lat/Long is always Northings followed by Eastings. I am virtually certain, on this count, that the turning points in the F541 were in Lat/Long.
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Clean32 #27:
That is the context in which the note in the F541 about the crash site of KH277 will have been made. I think it was always meant for F541 to be written and submitted quickly, so that real information was not lost through squadron untidiness. I infer that the report of the crash site came in quickly. That speaks of some admin link reaching into Kalemyo (as it was then) – if you do not like “V Force” you can guess for yourself what there was instead.
.
That is the context in which the note in the F541 about the crash site of KH277 will have been made. I think it was always meant for F541 to be written and submitted quickly, so that real information was not lost through squadron untidiness. I infer that the report of the crash site came in quickly. That speaks of some admin link reaching into Kalemyo (as it was then) – if you do not like “V Force” you can guess for yourself what there was instead.
.
Form 540 is the form filled out on the day, and i understand there was quite a bit of pressure in place to make this happen.
Form 541 was a summary of the months activities, i understand that in practice the form 540 keeped by the squadron had hand written notes of any late arriving information. this was just all typed up verbatum and the end of the month +10 days before being sent off.
now having said all that. form 541 would show the recovery of aircrew at a latter date one would assume. in this case not so.
so who did recover the air crews. two aircrews interned in different places suggests that they were recovered at different times?? i know 277 was re interned. ??
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Clean32 #27: I cheerfully acknowledge your greater acquaintance with this material.
Quite right about F541 - sorry to persist with the mistake. I found it on a 358 Sqn site where it is easier to read than in your transcription at thread #12.
I would not have known that the locations were grid rather than Lat/Long – I would be interested to have a link to something that decodes the grids we are discussing. I have plotted each of the locations as Lat/Long and note that the last location before “DZ” seems in each case to be exactly on the border of the then Indo-China. I would have thought that agents already planted would be nearer to civilisation than that.
You say that the last location before “DZ” in the F541 record is the location of the DZ. How to explain that the routes, in the case of aircraft “G”, “A” and “X”, are recorded as such a location to the DZ and back to the same location ?
.
Quite right about F541 - sorry to persist with the mistake. I found it on a 358 Sqn site where it is easier to read than in your transcription at thread #12.
I would not have known that the locations were grid rather than Lat/Long – I would be interested to have a link to something that decodes the grids we are discussing. I have plotted each of the locations as Lat/Long and note that the last location before “DZ” seems in each case to be exactly on the border of the then Indo-China. I would have thought that agents already planted would be nearer to civilisation than that.
You say that the last location before “DZ” in the F541 record is the location of the DZ. How to explain that the routes, in the case of aircraft “G”, “A” and “X”, are recorded as such a location to the DZ and back to the same location ?
.
as for the DZs you have northen thailand just north of chong mek in the horse shoe. next is north of that again on the Lao Chinese border the third where no aircraft returned from (3) is just east of what is now Hanoi.
all DZ were in Japanese hands at that time. all 3 Dzs are close to transport or population centers
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Clean - don't open up the can of worms that is long/lat conversions to grids - this whole forum isn't big enough
Let's just say there are many many ways a conversion can go wrong
Also be very very careful about assumptions - in most of the world grid refs are East then North - but in Romania it's often the other way round for example
I know for a fact that there are very large differences in WW2 mapping systems especially between the Japanese maps (based on Tokyo) and the US Army maps (based on Sydney) and then you throw in the good and not-so-good local mapping ................ chaos
Let's just say there are many many ways a conversion can go wrong
Also be very very careful about assumptions - in most of the world grid refs are East then North - but in Romania it's often the other way round for example
I know for a fact that there are very large differences in WW2 mapping systems especially between the Japanese maps (based on Tokyo) and the US Army maps (based on Sydney) and then you throw in the good and not-so-good local mapping ................ chaos
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Clean - don't open up the can of worms that is long/lat conversions to grids - this whole forum isn't big enough
Let's just say there are many many ways a conversion can go wrong
Also be very very careful about assumptions - in most of the world grid refs are East then North - but in Romania it's often the other way round for example
I know for a fact that there are very large differences in WW2 mapping systems especially between the Japanese maps (based on Tokyo) and the US Army maps (based on Sydney) and then you throw in the good and not-so-good local mapping ................ chaos
Let's just say there are many many ways a conversion can go wrong
Also be very very careful about assumptions - in most of the world grid refs are East then North - but in Romania it's often the other way round for example
I know for a fact that there are very large differences in WW2 mapping systems especially between the Japanese maps (based on Tokyo) and the US Army maps (based on Sydney) and then you throw in the good and not-so-good local mapping ................ chaos
i wish i could get my hands on more information. there was a book " picture scrapbook" written by a Corsair RNZAF pilot who came though the empire training program ( IE canada) but then came back to the pacific. i remember the comments in that book about navigation and the different and ineffective way the americans went about things regarding maps and plotting.
