USAAC deliberate downing of 2 RAF Liberators
 

Just come across a quote from Sir Max Hastings noting that the USAAC downed two RAF Liberators carrying French agents back to what was the French Indo China shortly after the Japanese surrender. Washington was determined that France should not re establish colonial rule. Seems odd to say the least. Anyone know more about this?


Mods feel free to move if on wrong page

Nothing here only one Liberator
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...rom_1945#1940s

'The First Vietnam War' by Peter M. Dunn, p87-88

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...erator&f=false

and

'Intelligence and the War against Japan: Britain, America and the Politics of Secret Service' by Richard J. Aldrich, p210-211

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...20duty&f=false

Both make reference to the alleged incident. It occurred during a breakdown in relations, one of the consequences of which was that we weren't informing the Americans of special duty flights into Indochina. Three aircraft were lost on one particular mission. Americans told the British that it was possible two of them had been shot down by P-61 Black Widow night fighters (at that stage of the war, they were shooting down more allied aircraft than enemy apparently) having ventured into range of the US air defences.

Both sides brushed the matter under carpet as relations were repaired shortly afterwards. Both sources point out that special duty missions continued so it seems more likely to be just another tragic fog of war incident rather than a conspiracy to stop the French reclaiming Indochina.

Well, Sir Max apparently has it wrong on at least one count, as the USAAC hadn't existed since 1941 when it became the USAAF.

I think you'll find it was 1947, not that I was there.


Oops, sorry, I was wrong.

No.
1947 was birth of USAF - USAAF became USAF.

skippedonce has it correct

Aeronautical Division, Signal Corps August 1, 1907 – July 18, 1914
Aviation Section, Signal Corps July 18, 1914 – May 20, 1918
Division of Military Aeronautics May 20, 1918 – May 24, 1918
Air Service, United States Army May 24, 1918 – July 2, 1926
United States Army Air Corps July 2, 1926 – June 20, 1941
United States Army Air Forces June 20, 1941 – September 18, 1947
United States Air Force September 18, 1947–present

Whatever it was called, what enemy aircraft could have looked like a Liberator and been flying at the time?
Less has been called an act of war when it has suited.

According to 'Intelligence and the War against Japan: Britain, America and the Politics of Secret Service' by Richard J. Aldrich” the date was Jan 22/23, 1945 and the incidents took place at night.
To quote the book:

So, in short, SOE/RAF persist in conducting operations by night in an area patrolled by USAAF night fighters, without resolving whatever the "dispute" is, & without coordination with the organisation conducting the patrols. Aircraft are (predictably) shot down, yet somehow it's the USAAF's fault? Sounds like hubris & incompetence came home to roost.

Sir Max Had it right
 

USAAC my mistake, sorry.

Its True
 

my grandmother younger brother Rnzaf was mid upper gunner on liberator KH277, 385 squadron RAF " special duties" based at Bengal India

Transcribed from the National Archives Records, Kew
Air 27/1765-1769
Draft No. 0 (as typed)
August, 2010
22 I. Operations.
Operational Order No. 2. – 11 aircraft detailed for S.D. Operations over Indo-
China, and took off at intervals from 1430 hours. A/c. 'T' 350 F/O. Robinson,
and A/c. 'Q' 367 F/O. Murray landed at Jessore on return. Three aircraft, 'K'
215, F/Lt. K. H. Brailsford, 'Z' 277 S/L. A. S. M. Pim and 'W' 278 F/Lt. S. D.
Mayhew, and crews did not return to base. Weather at Base was good but
crews ran into adverse conditions, heavy rain and 10/10ths cloud over D.Zs.
only 2 aircraft 'A' W/Cdr. Farr and 'G' F/O. Davison succeeded in locating
targets and dropping their loads. Others brought back loads to base.
III – Personnel.
Missing Personnel.
A/c. 'K' 215
F/L. K. H. Brailsford. Capt. (139520)
F/O. W. Russell. (J.27639) RCAF. 2nd P.
W/O. G. A. O'Toole (1550901) Nav.
P/O. L. Blick (178370) B/A.
W/O. J. R. Swain (1183127) 1.WOP.
358 Squadron January 1945
9
Sgt. J. G?. Gibbs (1338318) 2.WOP.
W/O. W. Lear (1339360) M.Up.Gnr.
P/O. R. J. Wilson (54992) Rear Gnr.
A/c. 'Z' 277
A/S/Ldr. A. S. M. Pim (60566) Capt.
F/Sgt. J. H. Holt (1522039) 2nd.P.
F/Sgt. E. C. Hearn (1595199) Nav.
F/O. W. J. Wallace (149990) B/A.
F/O. E. Clarke (149915) 1.WOP.
Sgt. G. Gittins (1458467) 2.WOP.
F/S. S. E. Sadler (NZ.425047) M.Up.Gnr.
Sgt. J. Robinson (976439) Rear Gnr.
A/c. 'W' 278
F/Lt. S. D. Mayhew (63404) Capt.
W/O. N. C. Kames? (1385163) 2nd.P.
F/Sgt. W. C. Roberts (656237) Nav.
P/O. J. Hughes (164129) B/A.
Sgt. V. Butt (1800854) 1.WOP.
F/O. J. A. Schmidt (Aus.434671) (RAAF) 2.WOP.
Sgt. J. R. Perry (1622796) M.Up.Gnr.
Sgt. E. W. Moore (1699162) Rear Gnr.

form 501

Route:- A/C "G" and "A" Base-2258N9442E-2203N9845E-2018N10010E-D.Z. -2018N10010E-
2203N9845E-2258N9442E-Base.
A/C "Z" and "C" Base-2258N9442E-2254N9840E-2234N10222E-D.Z. .-2258N9442E-Base.
(A/C "C" Flight abandoned 2234N10222E).
A/C "X" Base-2258N9443E-2203N9845E-2018N10010E-D.Z-2018N10010E-
2203N9845E-2258N9443E-Base.
A/C "Q" Base-2258N9443E-2147N10106E-D.Z.-2103N10519E-2138N10050E-
2258N9443E-Base.
A/C "O" Base-2258N9448E-2244N9840E-2234N10225E-D.Z.-2258N9442E-Base.
Load:- A/C. K. Z.? W. T. Q. X. O. carried 10 Containers each.
A/C. C. & D. carried 11 containers each.
A/C. "A" carried 9 containers and 2 packages.
A/C. "G" carried 9 containers.
Opposition:- No opposition at all was encountered.
Liberator
VI KH215
"K"
F/L. K. H. Brailsford
139520
Capt. 14.45 ------ This plane took off but failed to return
from operation.
F/O. W. Russell
J.27639 (R.C.A.F.)
2nd. Pilot
P/O. L. B?lick Nav.
358 Squadron January 1945
15
178370
W/O. O'Toole, G? A.
1550901
B/A
W/O. Swain, J. R.
1183127
W/OP
Sgt. Gibbs, J. C.
1538318
W/OP
W/O. Lear, W.
1339360
A/G
P/O. R. J. Wilson
54992
A/G.
Liberator
VI KH282
"G"
F/O. M. R. Davison
54090
Capt. 14.50 06.10
F/O. J. B. Smart
171567
2nd. Pilot
P/O. H. J. A.
Johnson 165517
Nav.
Sgt. Simpson, S. A.
1673688
B/A
Weather was very poor on route with
10/10 ths cloud topped at 11,000 ft. DZ.
was located at 21.20 hrs. with clear
weather conditions. "C" type reception
was observed. After dropping all
parachutes were seen to open and fall in
the target area after which aircraft flew
SW. for three minutes then set course for
Base at 21.30.
Sgt. Gaskin, D. S.
605616
W/OP
Sgt. Robertson, A.
W. 1800541
W/OP
Sgt. Whitehouse, G.
S. 1567533
A/G
Sgt. Wallace, K? W?
1568323
A/G.
Liberator
VI KH353
"D"
F/L. H. H. Monks
120514
Capt. 14.35 05.25
Sgt. Goddard, G. D.
1585900
2nd. Pilot
W/O. Philips, F. D.
A.405603 (R.A.A.F.)
Nav.
Target was not located due to very bad
weather conditions. 500 miles away from
target 10/10 ths S. and S/C. cloud above
and below aircraft was encountered. 50
miles from target Capt. descended below
cloud only to find 10/10 ths valley fog
covering target. Did not drop load.
P/O. W. MacDonald
164203
B/A
F/S. Hill, G. M.
A.437419 (R.A.A.F.)
W/OP
F/S. Morris, E. G.
A.437437 (R.A.A.F.)
W/OP
Sgt. Taylor, D. R.
1846508
A/G
Sgt. Miles, H.
1811869
A/G.
Liberator
VI KH277
"Z"
S/L. A. D. M. Pim.
60566
Capt. 14.30 --------
F/S. Holt, J. H.
1522039
2nd. Pilot
This plane took off but failed to return
from operations. Subsequently reported
found crashed in Chin Hills near
Kalemyo. Nothing was observed by other
aircraft.
F/S. Hearne E. C.
1585199
Nav.
358 Squadron January 1945
16
F/O. E. Clarke
149915
W/OP
F/O. W. J. Wallace
1499990
B/A
F/S. Sadler, S.E.
NZ428267
(R.N.Z.A.F.)
A/G
Sgt. Gittins, G.
1458467
W/OP
Sgt. Robinson J.
976434
A/G.
Liberator
VI KH278
"W"
F/Lt. S. D. Mayhew
63404
Capt. 14.35 -------- This plane took off but failed to return
from operations. Nothing observed by
other aircraft.
W/O. Eames, N. O?
1385263
2nd. Pilot
P/O. J. Hughes
164129
Nav.
F/S. Roberts, W. G.
6562?37
B/A
Sgt. Butt, V.
1800854
W/OP
P/O. J. A. Schmidt
A434671 (R.A.A.F.)
W/OP
Sgt. Perry, J. R.
1636796
A/G
F/S. Moore, F.
1699152
A/G.
Liberator
VI KH312
"X"
F/O. K. W. Jones
175022
Capt. 15.10 05.00
F/S. Mills W. R.
1108628
2nd. Pilot
Sgt. Dunn, H.
1549512
Nav.
W/O. Ball, E? T.
581493
B/A
Poor weather was encountered with
10/10ths cloud based at 6,000 ft. On
arrival at D.Z. there was considerable
ground haze and no moon was visible.
No signal was seen and the Navigator
was not certain if he had accurately
located D.Z. Finally aircraft set course for
Base at 21.15 hrs.
P/O. L. J. H. Talbot
186538
W/OP
F/S. Dawson, H. T.
NZ.425654
(R.N.Z.A.F.)
W/OP
W/O. Richards, E. A.
1338958
A/G
W/O. Rozee, F. W.
1332037
A/G.
Liberator
VI KH167
"A"
W/Cdr. P. G. D. Farr
DFC 39936
Capt. 15.15 04.45
F/S. Banks, P. K.
1603971
2nd. Pilot
Very bad weather was experienced on
the route to the target, but a small gap in
the clouds allowed a descent and a
successful drop was made.
F/L. P. L. Ryan Nav.
358 Squadron January 1945
17
125641
F/S. Jackman, R
967248
B/A
F/O. S. J. Brace
162856
W/OP
Sgt. Thirkettle, C.
1025625
W/OP
Sgt. Stanley, J.
1894296
A/G
F/S. Wells, K.
1890474
FE/AG
F/L. P. J. Kydd
82745
A/G.
Liberator
VI KH271
"C"
S/L. S. A. Sharpe
45712
Capt. 14.20 03.25 Target was not located owing to very bad
weather conditions which necessitated
turning back to Base at 22.15 hrs.
F/O. B. J. C.
Edwards 157851
2nd. Pilot
F/S. Kirby, C. S.
1391233
Nav.
W/O. Cross, R. H.
1337426
B/A
W/O. Buchanan, J.
A. 1365057
W/OP
F/S. Noble, F. W.
A.437539 (R.A.A.F.)
W/OP
W/O. Fayle, J. W.
1357609
A/G
W/O. Seymour, E.
W. 1300922
A/G.
F/S. Fenbow, R. C.
1672757.
FE/AG
Liberator
VI KH253
"O"
P/O. J. C. Stuart
184239
Capt. 14.30 03.50
F/S. Drummond, S.
W. 1133124
2nd. Pilot
Poor weather conditions on route 9/10
ths cloud with tops 8/9000 ft. and poor
visibility. At 19.55 hrs Capt. set course for
Base after unsuccessfully trying to find
D.Z.
Sgt. Wright, J. C.
544422
B/A
F/S. Batchelor, J. H.
1316082
Nav.
Sgt. Blackburn, S. P.
1020030
W/OP
Sgt. Vickers, F. E.
1817431
W/OP
W/O. Hendry, W
1123732
A/G
P/O. F. S. Edwards
185307
A/G.
Liberator
VI KH367
"Q"
F/O. J. C. Murray
J27678
Capt. 14.40 05.40 10/10 ths cloud and showers were
encountered over most of the route. On
arrival at D.Z. at 21.10 hrs. Capt. found a
358 Squadron January 1945
18
W/O. Jones, J. H.
527725
S/Pilot
P/O. T. Kay 164079 B/A
F/O. E. P. Field
146307
Nav.
cap in cloud which he circled but no
signals were seen. Finally aircraft set
course Base at 21.30 hrs and had to land
at Jessore at 05.30 hrs. due to shortage
of fuel.
F/S. Bateman, J. E.
A.424944 (R.A.A.F.)
W/OP
F/S. Ashby, A. F.
A.424012 (R.A.A.F.)
W/OP
Sgt. Cosh, A.
653388
A/G
Sgt. Frederick, H. G.
1853345
A/G.
Liberator
VI KH350
"T"
F/O. R. W. Robinson
51159
Capt. 14.30 05.40
F/S. Bullen, R. M.
NZ425880
(R.N.Z.A.F.)
2nd. Pilot
Sgt. Sherwood, A. J.
1583263
B/A
Bad weather was encountered over most
of the route. On arrival at D.Z. at 21.00
hrs. it was found that the target was
covered by 10/10 ths cloud. Aircraft flew
around seeking a gap in the cloud but
was unsuccessful so set course for base
at 21.40 hrs. landing at Jessore at 05.40
hrs. due to shortage of fuel.
P/O. W. H. Bull
165575
Nav.
P/O. L. C. Bartlett
160606
W/OP
Sgt. Andrews, E. H.
1357596
W/OP
Sgt. Clarke, T. F.
636459
A/G
Sgt. Burling, A.
18877098
A/G.
11 aircraft were detailed to carry out this operation which was the first S.D. operation allotted to the Squadron. Only
2 sorties were successful. Three aircraft failed to return and it is not known if they were successful in their missions.
Bad weather interfered considerably and was the determining factor in the final results.

if you look at the 501 closely you will see that not all aircraft were heading to the same place Nor had the same load.
i assume i know what " package means???

Nothing ever changes...
 

Relevance?

well to be more accurate and factual for the time.
the only Night Fighter Squadron 426th was based in china.
there job was to escort american bombers to japan
these escort operations were far to the north. "obviously"
By the middle of January 1945 the Japanese were not trying to intercept the bombers. the Japanese has assessed correctly. that the cost of these operations in man and material versus the poor results, that the yanks would not continue these raids for long. which was true.

Japanese records show that they had no aircraft flying on the night of the 22/23 january.

american an american 426th P61 pilot was credited with 1 kill and 1 damaged

KH277 and KH217 both crashed into high ground on there pre designated track. ( IE they were where they were supposed to be.)
The weather was a bit iffy on the way out. but the weather was clear on the return ( but it was night).

Summing up

Although circumstantial it is quite clear once you add the all the little stuff as well. Like the P61 pilots log book being taken and not the records but the missing records of his squadron for that 2 day period. And that those 2 days are the only missing records.
The fact that the P61s were no longer escorting due to the lack of opposition but were casting further afield. They were in fact operating within Sempai 61’s operational area. Both well documented facts.
We do know that 3 Liberators were shot at, one went down in flames as reported by the P61 crew, they also reported another damaged and that they made a total of 6 passes. I would surmise that they actually damaged two aircraft and not the one as was claimed.
Officially the two damaged aircraft were losed, reason unknown, there is some speculation about weather, but all the reports from the other aircraft was that the weather was good. But bad over target DZ. Both crash sites are quite close. About 20 miles apart. The first is on a reverse slope the second is on a slope at right angle to the line of flight.
There are two points. The weather was bad over the DZ, this could have played a role in the lack of the P61s ability to ID what would have been very familiar lines of a Liberator to an American pilot. The second is that it would appear that the aircraft did not just fly into a granite cloud and that some pilot input was needed or that the pilot was unable to control the aircraft. Give that this is the same ground flown over on the way out. Leaves me to guess that both aircraft tried to reverse course because they could not gain altitude, why? Because of damage? Or mechanical problems?
Politics
The Poms. And Mountbatten. Well they did their best to arm every resistance fighter who would kill a jap they could, Communists in Malay, independence fighters in Sumatra and the French resistance in Indochina. America was big of forcing or had the view that France England and the Dutch should not get there old colonies back after the war. To that end they had policies while under Stillwell or Vinegar Joe to just hinder or prolong the war if it suited there end. Refusing to provide American shipping to get British troops from BBK to Sumatra for example or refusing or even getting Chinese patrols to hunt French resistance fighters in Indochina or at least disarming them. In the meantime the Americans were training the Vet Mhin in china?. So based on this facts it looks highly likely that there was a conspiracy to hinder or that the Americans found it acceptable to shoot down RAF aircraft . but not so. We also know that SOE was not informing the Americans what they were doing. So how did the p61 know they were there? Also given that there were a number of aircraft operating that night. Why was only the 3 aircraft attacked on the same track? Why were there not more P61 flying and attacking the other aircraft at their targets?
Back to politics. October 1944 Stillwell got the boot, he was a bumbling fool anyway. His replacement was much smarter and was well known to have seen the communist threat as much more of a problem than as the possible recolonization. This panned out when Truman took over. From a really ani colonization policy to a policy of do nothing.
It is in my opinion that these 3 aircraft were losed because of 1, Lack of training of the Yanks, 2 lack of experience of the Yanks 3, The Americans Not informing SEATC of a change in SOP 4, the breakdown in communications in SEATC firstly between Stillwell and Mountbatten, secondly Stillwell’s American first policy over a win the bloody war policy. Which lead to the operations guys on both teams not talking to each other?

.

The all persuasive need to "win" no matter what the actual outcome.

Taking up Clean32’s observation at #13, all of the eleven aircraft might indeed have been heading for the same place. For each aircraft the target is not specified – just named as DZ in all cases. All we get from the 501 is a selection of different routes to various points on the Indo-China border. I would have thought that the 501’s author would have numbered the DZs if they were different, even if he was concerned not to reveal their locations. Still I would agree that to drop all eleven eggs into one basket would be surprising and very different from the practice established with the Resistance in France.

I note that KH277 “Z” crashed well away from any USAAF operations, about half way between its base at Digri and its first turning point. It fell either after only a couple of hours flight or near to the end of its sortie – we do not know which. If it fell due to a night fighter attack, it kept airborne for several hours afterwards. In that case, with two W/Ops on board, one would have thought the aircraft would have informed the squadron of the trouble it was in.

The 501 tells us the wreck had been found behind XIV Army lines. It was probably found by a contingent of what was known there as V Force. Surely whoever found it would have reported any gun damage ? I suggest “Z” was lost by accident rather than by blue-on-blue.

There is a cottage industry that continues the attempt to attribute to malice that which is caused by error or confusion. And then there are those like wk who have a never ending ax to grind.