Long Service Medal for Officers
XFC
I get where you are coming from regarding the size of the problem (ie. cost) and I also understand where those that have retired are coming from (ie. disappointment). So as ever, the compromise might be for the MoD to issue a certificate of entitlement to veterans and then, of they so wish, they can purchase one at their own expense?
It costs £25 for one engraved from here:
The Mess Dress
Then it has cost the MoD very little and to the veteran they can prove entitlement and not end up in the Walter Mitty Hunters' Club gallery!
Simples
LJ
I get where you are coming from regarding the size of the problem (ie. cost) and I also understand where those that have retired are coming from (ie. disappointment). So as ever, the compromise might be for the MoD to issue a certificate of entitlement to veterans and then, of they so wish, they can purchase one at their own expense?
It costs £25 for one engraved from here:
The Mess Dress
Then it has cost the MoD very little and to the veteran they can prove entitlement and not end up in the Walter Mitty Hunters' Club gallery!
Simples
LJ
In fact, thinking about it, the already issued RAF 'Valedictory Certificate', or previous to 2007 teh 'Valedictory Letter', should show that entitlement and so there would be no need to issue anything - just change the policy to include this. It would need to prove the same length of qualifying service.
No cost to MoD, entitlement officially given to veterans and if they wish they may purchase and wear the 'Long Gong' as Officers like those that are currently serving.
LJ
No cost to MoD, entitlement officially given to veterans and if they wish they may purchase and wear the 'Long Gong' as Officers like those that are currently serving.
LJ
Surely the point of Remembrance Sunday is to remember the dead? Not to try and tell everyone you used to be in the military. If you are that concerned that people know about your past, you have a veterans badge.
All medals come with qualifying criteria and someone, somewhere, always dips out. Where do you draw the line? The argument that it should be given to everyone could apply to every coronation and Jubilee medal ever issued.
Those advocating the issuing of a LS medal to retired officers, from what year would you count qualifying service? Or would you issue it to all officers who have ever served in the armed forces?
All medals come with qualifying criteria and someone, somewhere, always dips out. Where do you draw the line? The argument that it should be given to everyone could apply to every coronation and Jubilee medal ever issued.
Those advocating the issuing of a LS medal to retired officers, from what year would you count qualifying service? Or would you issue it to all officers who have ever served in the armed forces?
Welcome to the site. Your post raises a few simplistic points that have been covered many times. However, if this really is your first post here, you might consider doing some background work before typing!
OAP
In fact, thinking about it, the already issued RAF 'Valedictory Certificate', or previous to 2007 teh 'Valedictory Letter', should show that entitlement and so there would be no need to issue anything - just change the policy to include this. It would need to prove the same length of qualifying service.
No cost to MoD, entitlement officially given to veterans and if they wish they may purchase and wear the 'Long Gong' as Officers like those that are currently serving.
LJ
No cost to MoD, entitlement officially given to veterans and if they wish they may purchase and wear the 'Long Gong' as Officers like those that are currently serving.
LJ
I think this has been proposed here and, I wrote along the same lines to the Sec of State for Defence last year. However, the proposal was rebuffed due to the "cost" and the falsehood that the medal is a "new" one, designed for "going forward". Wankers!
OAP
Surely the point of Remembrance Sunday is to remember the dead? Not to try and tell everyone you used to be in the military. If you are that concerned that people know about your past, you have a veterans badge.
Mind you nobody has ever asked me to relate my war experiences in Aden when they see my solitary South Arabia GSM. Good job too, as I have never been any good at making up stories!
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I have read the thread and seen both sides of the argument, with a nice little segue into the mess that is Op SHADER recognition.
A couple of replies have given good ideas on how retired officers could prove entitlement but I have yet to see anyone suggest a better set of qualifying criteria. Do you open up eligibility for all officers who have ever served or put some sort of time limit on it?
Mind you nobody has ever asked me to relate my war experiences in Aden when they see my solitary South Arabia GSM. Good job too, as I have never been any good at making up stories!
A superb Flight Sergeant I had the privilege of working with, was asked by one of the lads as to how he had got one peculiar medal ribbon.
"Cowering in a trench boy , singing war songs!"
A superb Flight Sergeant I had the privilege of working with, was asked by one of the lads as to how he had got one peculiar medal ribbon.
"Cowering in a trench boy , singing war songs!"
Above was all about the time of the 1977 Silver Jubilee Medal.By the time it got down to my unit level in RAFG there was one medal left of the allocation. As a Flt Lt. I was given the task of allocating it. The strong hint was given ,by my unit C.O. that it would be in my interests(1369 and all that) to suggest him " as representing the unit" .Yeah Sure,
In the event I overheard said Ft Sgt above stating, in the crew bar,that the the medal was a worthless waste of time and therefore a total embarrassment to any recipient.
Guess who got it !
In the event I overheard said Ft Sgt above stating, in the crew bar,that the the medal was a worthless waste of time and therefore a total embarrassment to any recipient.
Guess who got it !
LS&GC Medal Eligibility
In his post No 62 on this thread, Leon suggested that a way forward might be for the MOD to issue a certificate to veterans who satisfied all of the criteria relating to the award of the appropriate Long Service and Good Conduct Medal (LS&GC Medal) so that they could, if they wished, purchase one at their own expense, saving the Government from much of the costs.
At present, JSP (Joint Service Publication) 761 Part 1 (V5.0 Oct 16) prescribes in paragraph 5B.01 subparagraph c. "Officers who left the Regular Forces prior to 29 July 2014 are ineligible for the medal". In order that Leon's suggestion might become a viable solution, this subparagraph will have to be removed and replaced - so what would then be a suitable alternative? Presumably, above all else the need would be to preserve the 'worth' of the medal in the eyes of all recipients past, present and future by retaining the existing Qualifying Conduct and Service requirements (paragraphs 5B.02 and 5B.04 respectively, 5B.03 being 'Reserved'), yet with subparagraph c. amended to accommodate those Regular Service officers who have already retired.
The proposal to allow retired RS officers to purchase the appropriate LS&GC Medal might be challenged by those who value the fact that it should be awarded by HM The Queen in a manner similar to all other official medals, and that to obtain one by other means could run counter to established practice. Whilst I could understand this objection, I would point out that there is nothing new about individuals who believe they are entitled to a medal applying for it by submitting the MOD Medal Application Form: this can be used by those applying on their own behalf, on behalf of relatives who are still alive, and for those who are deceased. If successful, then entitlement to the medal is affirmed and in due could it is made available.
So what would be so different about receiving a statement of entitlement that would allow the claimant to purchase the medal and then wear it in full compliance with the regulations? I understand that it is not uncommon for persons who have already received medals from purchasing duplicates that they then display and wear whilst the originals are kept in a safe place and worn only on special occasions. This process could just as easily be followed to obtain an 'original' - once entitled to do so. From my perspective, the critical point is entitlement to wear this medal, for however much I might feel entitled but not possess such entitlement, I would never purchase and wear it unless so entitled, for that would be not only quite improper but also in breach of regulations.
Acceptance of these proposals by the Government should overcome the sense of grievance felt by many who consider that they have missed out unfairly by the ineligibility clause, yet facilitate a solution at minimal expense to public coffers. Of course, many potential claimants might never wish to claim an entitlement to the appropriate LS&GC Medal, and the relatives of those who might have deserved it but are now deceased might not have an interest in obtaining one, which means that the burden of extra work to be undertaken by the Medal Office might not be excessive, and costs contained accordingly.
If the stark ineligibility clause were to be removed, then perhaps it might be replaced by something along the lines of, "Officers who left the Regular Forces before 29 July 2014 are ineligible for the automatic award of the medal. Those who retired before this date and satisfy all other relevant criteria may request a statement of entitlement that will allow them to purchase this medal at their own expense and wear it on suitable occasions."
Just to restate what this is all about: nothing about LS&GC Medals (I include all three versions in this description) addressed in the JSP are 'new', save that the Government took steps to rectify the anomaly by which RS officers had been denied medallic recognition of their voluntary, long and honourable service to their Queen and Country (nothing whatsoever to do with campaigns or risk and rigour). And yet the Government specified a date, arbitrarily it would seem, that excluded many who could claim to have deserved it on equitable terms in former years. My wish and that of others, it is now clear, is that a way should be found to overcome this barrier.
Once a new Government has been formed I have every intention of bringing my arguments to the notice of those who might bring about change and rectify this yet-to-be-completed anomaly. (I had written to the Minister of State in July 2015 before the amendment to the JSP was published, but a fresh approach to a new Government might be fruitful.) I shall also suggest that in addition to taking advice on this matter from Very Senior Officers in the Armed Forces who, having already qualified for medals, might not so easily understand the sentiments and articulate the views of those of us who have no medallic recognition from our Nation, any advisory committee should include representatives from the latter group.
One can but try!
In his post No 62 on this thread, Leon suggested that a way forward might be for the MOD to issue a certificate to veterans who satisfied all of the criteria relating to the award of the appropriate Long Service and Good Conduct Medal (LS&GC Medal) so that they could, if they wished, purchase one at their own expense, saving the Government from much of the costs.
At present, JSP (Joint Service Publication) 761 Part 1 (V5.0 Oct 16) prescribes in paragraph 5B.01 subparagraph c. "Officers who left the Regular Forces prior to 29 July 2014 are ineligible for the medal". In order that Leon's suggestion might become a viable solution, this subparagraph will have to be removed and replaced - so what would then be a suitable alternative? Presumably, above all else the need would be to preserve the 'worth' of the medal in the eyes of all recipients past, present and future by retaining the existing Qualifying Conduct and Service requirements (paragraphs 5B.02 and 5B.04 respectively, 5B.03 being 'Reserved'), yet with subparagraph c. amended to accommodate those Regular Service officers who have already retired.
The proposal to allow retired RS officers to purchase the appropriate LS&GC Medal might be challenged by those who value the fact that it should be awarded by HM The Queen in a manner similar to all other official medals, and that to obtain one by other means could run counter to established practice. Whilst I could understand this objection, I would point out that there is nothing new about individuals who believe they are entitled to a medal applying for it by submitting the MOD Medal Application Form: this can be used by those applying on their own behalf, on behalf of relatives who are still alive, and for those who are deceased. If successful, then entitlement to the medal is affirmed and in due could it is made available.
So what would be so different about receiving a statement of entitlement that would allow the claimant to purchase the medal and then wear it in full compliance with the regulations? I understand that it is not uncommon for persons who have already received medals from purchasing duplicates that they then display and wear whilst the originals are kept in a safe place and worn only on special occasions. This process could just as easily be followed to obtain an 'original' - once entitled to do so. From my perspective, the critical point is entitlement to wear this medal, for however much I might feel entitled but not possess such entitlement, I would never purchase and wear it unless so entitled, for that would be not only quite improper but also in breach of regulations.
Acceptance of these proposals by the Government should overcome the sense of grievance felt by many who consider that they have missed out unfairly by the ineligibility clause, yet facilitate a solution at minimal expense to public coffers. Of course, many potential claimants might never wish to claim an entitlement to the appropriate LS&GC Medal, and the relatives of those who might have deserved it but are now deceased might not have an interest in obtaining one, which means that the burden of extra work to be undertaken by the Medal Office might not be excessive, and costs contained accordingly.
If the stark ineligibility clause were to be removed, then perhaps it might be replaced by something along the lines of, "Officers who left the Regular Forces before 29 July 2014 are ineligible for the automatic award of the medal. Those who retired before this date and satisfy all other relevant criteria may request a statement of entitlement that will allow them to purchase this medal at their own expense and wear it on suitable occasions."
Just to restate what this is all about: nothing about LS&GC Medals (I include all three versions in this description) addressed in the JSP are 'new', save that the Government took steps to rectify the anomaly by which RS officers had been denied medallic recognition of their voluntary, long and honourable service to their Queen and Country (nothing whatsoever to do with campaigns or risk and rigour). And yet the Government specified a date, arbitrarily it would seem, that excluded many who could claim to have deserved it on equitable terms in former years. My wish and that of others, it is now clear, is that a way should be found to overcome this barrier.
Once a new Government has been formed I have every intention of bringing my arguments to the notice of those who might bring about change and rectify this yet-to-be-completed anomaly. (I had written to the Minister of State in July 2015 before the amendment to the JSP was published, but a fresh approach to a new Government might be fruitful.) I shall also suggest that in addition to taking advice on this matter from Very Senior Officers in the Armed Forces who, having already qualified for medals, might not so easily understand the sentiments and articulate the views of those of us who have no medallic recognition from our Nation, any advisory committee should include representatives from the latter group.
One can but try!
O.K. . I got a GSM in 1975 .Hoots of laughter among the old hands as having it being gained on a home tour. (N.I.) Indeed, I know of some of my compatriots who never put it up in order to avoid any awkward questions ,since we weren't there then officially as RAF(Imint) .
Long Service and Good Conduct medals were, at that time, solely the prerogative of S.N.C.O's. some of whom took them down on being commissioned, for reasons that I still have issues with.
I served in a few places post that time , watching other Nations pinning medals on themselves, and being promised that ours were "in the pipeline" (e.g. Turkey during "Provide Comfort" post GW1) . All in all "so what"? .
To those who wish to parade themselves with medals in memory of the fallen , fine. I won't comment further.
Long Service and Good Conduct medals were, at that time, solely the prerogative of S.N.C.O's. some of whom took them down on being commissioned, for reasons that I still have issues with.
I served in a few places post that time , watching other Nations pinning medals on themselves, and being promised that ours were "in the pipeline" (e.g. Turkey during "Provide Comfort" post GW1) . All in all "so what"? .
To those who wish to parade themselves with medals in memory of the fallen , fine. I won't comment further.
Haraka
I am confused by your postings. Do you have an ambivalent opinion of Military awards or do you think, as I do, that it is important that they should be as fair as possible criteria?
OAP
I am confused by your postings. Do you have an ambivalent opinion of Military awards or do you think, as I do, that it is important that they should be as fair as possible criteria?
OAP
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100% with Nugget90 ...
"Officers who left the Regular Forces before 29 July 2014 are ineligible for the automatic award of the medal. Those who retired before this date and satisfy all other relevant criteria may request a statement of entitlement that will allow them to purchase this medal at their own expense and wear it on suitable occasions."
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
TTN, on point of contact I agree. A veteran's badge says one thing, even a VRT qualify. A LS&GC medal says something else such as Service. On its own another message. It used to denote an OR, now no longer. With a jubilee medal, yet another.
They all serve as a point of reference at a gathering.
At Runnymede i spotted an Air Gunner Association badge on a car. What a tale that Vet had together with a photo album. At the club a unit tie opened up another story - ASW Wellingtons in the Gulf of Aden. An Arctic Star led to the 151 Sqn in Russia and he was subsequently Air attaché in Moscow.
Few Vets are Harrier pilots but are happy to tell a tale to anyone genuinely interested.
Gongs are important.
They all serve as a point of reference at a gathering.
At Runnymede i spotted an Air Gunner Association badge on a car. What a tale that Vet had together with a photo album. At the club a unit tie opened up another story - ASW Wellingtons in the Gulf of Aden. An Arctic Star led to the 151 Sqn in Russia and he was subsequently Air attaché in Moscow.
Few Vets are Harrier pilots but are happy to tell a tale to anyone genuinely interested.
Gongs are important.
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Originally Posted by Haraka
Long Service and Good Conduct medals were, at that time, solely the prerogative of S.N.C.O's. some of whom took them down on being commissioned, for reasons that I still have issues with.
I suspect I was not the only one who felt a subsequent twinge of guilt about the teasing.
OAP]
Thank you for reading my posts.
Medals and Citations are part of the military system. It should be fair.
Unfortunately this is not the case when overriding higher level considerations come in to play.
Thank you for reading my posts.
Medals and Citations are part of the military system. It should be fair.
Unfortunately this is not the case when overriding higher level considerations come in to play.
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You know why the Op Allowance is there? It is a UK Poli's ploy to bury the fact that Uncle Sams servicemen work income tax-free on Ops. The UK answer to that was an OA rate that just about covered a very junior servicemans tax level. This allows gob****e UK Polis to BS their way out of that criticism and, they have worked to make OA as limited as possible ever since. 
OAP
OAP
The LS for officers is not needed. The funding would be better spent on recognising the lengthy time away on ops that more and more personnel are picking up - yet unrecognised. And that would probably convince juniors to stay in longer - some are questioning what this ops thing is all about if it is not recognised with a medal or op allowance.
Bob - I don't think I called anyone a chinless wonder - I'll leave that task to the digusting creature Peter Mandelson and his comments on the Household Division - but there are plenty around who swerve every 6 monther that comes up citing health or family reasons or...running a business!
Loads.
G
Last edited by gijoe; 29th May 2017 at 20:06.
100% with Nugget90 ...
Quote:
"Officers who left the Regular Forces before 29 July 2014 are ineligible for the automatic award of the medal. Those who retired before this date and satisfy all other relevant criteria may request a statement of entitlement that will allow them to purchase this medal at their own expense and wear it on suitable occasions."
Quote:
"Officers who left the Regular Forces before 29 July 2014 are ineligible for the automatic award of the medal. Those who retired before this date and satisfy all other relevant criteria may request a statement of entitlement that will allow them to purchase this medal at their own expense and wear it on suitable occasions."