New Year's Honours - 2016
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4everAD
It is because it is mostly the officers, commissioned and warranted, who are in a position of sufficient responsibility and who have the power to make a significant difference, or catastrophic cock-up, in a challenging situation. That is why the system rewards exceptional achievement.
If you favour a Corbinistic system where everyone gets a VC and KBE for successfully driving a refuelling truck, good luck to you.
Fair and reasonable? If that is the case why do 95 odd % of the honours go to Officers (Commissioned and Warranted?) Are you really saying that in majority of the Royal Air Force there aren't people deserving? Or is it as has been alluded to a case of people neither being able to or bothered to write up juniors?
If you favour a Corbinistic system where everyone gets a VC and KBE for successfully driving a refuelling truck, good luck to you.
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It is because it is mostly the officers, commissioned and warranted, who are in a position of sufficient responsibility and who have the power to make a significant difference, or catastrophic cock-up, in a challenging situation. That is why the system rewards exceptional achievement.
Nutloose may show a bit of bias in his posts, but I think many would agree there is a fair degree of truth in what he has written. In many cases, MoD departments and parts of the military succeed despite the people at the top, not because of them.
Oh, and did I mention the blinkers some people seem to wear when posting GS?
S-D
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
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I wasn't wanting to be sounding biased, just when I think back to my time at Odiham, we had two civilian tanker drivers on the section, one was coming up to retirement at 70 and had served the RAF man and boy, both in and out of uniform from school continuously up until his retirement, that was a person who deserved an award in my eyes, not someone who is awarded something for serving in a post for a couple of years on the backs of those that made it happen..
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Ha ... like my wife's [not] Silver Jubilee. She was going to get it, as the fg off ADC, but instead it was given to a wg cdr who was leaving the Service, who presumably never wore it again.
She's still a bit pi$$ed off by that.
She's still a bit pi$$ed off by that.
Having seen both sides of the fence, I'd say it's far easier to get an award for doing a good job in the military than the equivalent person in civvie street. Think this is mainly due to the fact that MOD has a system in place to deal with nominations, whereas your average divvy wouldn't have a clue where to start, let alone have access to a command chain providing experienced peer review.
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Originally Posted by Genstabler
There is good reason to be cynical about the civilian awards, especially the political ones, but I can't see how awarding the loo cleaner a gong would improve the system.
I would say scrap the award system but the people in a position to do that are the main beneficiaries of "the system" so it isn't going to happen.
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Vendee
If we are discussing the state honours system, in the military you don't get an honour for years of worthy but undistinguished service, whatever your place in the hierarchy. Single out the worthy loo cleaner for an award and you have to give it to every other Tom, Dick and Harriet who completes an honest working life. All are equally worthy, but perhaps not of a state honour bestowed by the Queen. Honours are not, and should not be, the equivalent of a LSGC medal.
Your comments sum up the problem with "the system". Why would the loo cleaner be less worthy of an award after, say, 40 years of hard work?
I can't comment on how senior officers gain their knighthoods. But for the 'lesser' awards of MBE, OBE and CBE, it is a good rule of thumb that the award says as much about the writer of the nomination as it does about the recipient. There are plenty of deserving individuals out there whose chain of command has failed to write them up for awards, either through poor admin or by applying an unnecessarily harsh level of initial screening. And there are plenty of senior officers out there who couldn't write a decent report or citation if they tried (as anyone who has sat on a promotion board can all too easily attest). But there are some officers whose subordinates always seem to do well come honours time.
As long as different senior officers take differing perspectives on the honours season (from "a pain in the a*se" to "a chance to reward my most deserving individuals" to "a chance to show how great I am by getting awards for as many subordinates as possible, deserving or otherwise") then there will be apparent oversights and inconsistencies. Unavoidable really!
As long as different senior officers take differing perspectives on the honours season (from "a pain in the a*se" to "a chance to reward my most deserving individuals" to "a chance to show how great I am by getting awards for as many subordinates as possible, deserving or otherwise") then there will be apparent oversights and inconsistencies. Unavoidable really!
My dad got awarded the Royal Victorian Medal as a WO2 in North Africa in 1943 for arranging security for the king. He got the ribbon by hand from HM at the time, and a week later his commission came through. Had he been commissioned before the royal visit he would have received the MVO, which unlike the medal, carried with it post nominal letters.
After the war he returned to his job in the AA, who always quite incorrectly referred to him as "Supt M. Bloggs, MVO", right up to his retirement in 1968, as they thought it rather good to have a member of staff with post-nominal letters. Total snobbery of course, which amused dad, but he happily played along with it!
After the war he returned to his job in the AA, who always quite incorrectly referred to him as "Supt M. Bloggs, MVO", right up to his retirement in 1968, as they thought it rather good to have a member of staff with post-nominal letters. Total snobbery of course, which amused dad, but he happily played along with it!
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Unavoidable really!
S-D
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"Cameron awarding his crony Crosby is probably one of the worst awards we have seen. Even that fat, useless, belligerent, obnoxious parasite from Hull was more deserving than this one."
SD - not strictly true, as Gordon Brown gave his election campaign manager a peerage, and he didn't even manage to win!!
SD - not strictly true, as Gordon Brown gave his election campaign manager a peerage, and he didn't even manage to win!!
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As a VRT, sitting just on the fence between the military and the civvy world, it seems to me that those who do well in the military are rewarded twice - once with a gong, and once with a promotion. In civvy life you get one or other - a promotion at work, or a gong for valuable voluntary service (including, to be fair, a few in the ACO each year).
Is that unfair?
Is that unfair?
tmmorris,
A little unfair in some cases. The stereotypical recipients of military MBEs are hoary old WOs with no aspiration for commissioning, or Flt Lts / Sqn Ldrs who have long since fallen off the career ladder. None of these will be promoted but continue to give dedicated service which only receives formal recognition in the shape of some sort of award. Same is true (to a lesser extent) for OBEs and CBEs as officers hit their career ceiling higher up the ranks.
Of course there are some who gather these gongs while also climbing upwards, and you may have a point in thoses cases. But how do you write a rule that only makes those with no further promotion prospects eligible for awards?
A little unfair in some cases. The stereotypical recipients of military MBEs are hoary old WOs with no aspiration for commissioning, or Flt Lts / Sqn Ldrs who have long since fallen off the career ladder. None of these will be promoted but continue to give dedicated service which only receives formal recognition in the shape of some sort of award. Same is true (to a lesser extent) for OBEs and CBEs as officers hit their career ceiling higher up the ranks.
Of course there are some who gather these gongs while also climbing upwards, and you may have a point in thoses cases. But how do you write a rule that only makes those with no further promotion prospects eligible for awards?
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Easy Street
As this is a rumour forum I suppose it is acceptable for you to post complete tripe. The stereotypes you describe are just that; stereotypes. If you were better informed and carried a smaller chip you would see that.
As this is a rumour forum I suppose it is acceptable for you to post complete tripe. The stereotypes you describe are just that; stereotypes. If you were better informed and carried a smaller chip you would see that.
Last edited by Genstabler; 1st Jan 2016 at 17:16.
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I always think more of people who were asked if they wanted something, but actually turned them down. David Bowie (a one time jazz musician of some note) and also Nigella Lawson apparently (a comely chef) spring to mind. Source- what I read somewhere once).
Other, far more successful (and a lot fairer) countries don't bother with all this nonsense, and it would be a sign of progress somehow if neither did we.
"The wheel that squeeks the loudest gets the most grease".* includes the military.
Other, far more successful (and a lot fairer) countries don't bother with all this nonsense, and it would be a sign of progress somehow if neither did we.
"The wheel that squeeks the loudest gets the most grease".* includes the military.
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Honours and awards - little lights in a dark world !
Let me put cards on the table: I think our honours system evolved in the 19th century into an almost perfect model of its type. I was never likely to benefit from it, but the colour of it certainly brightens otherwise drab uniforms.
With respect to Hangarshuffle, almost every country has an honours system of some sort although who of us would know how fair those systems are. We might note the pictures of royal weddings in Scandinavia or Monaco and feel mildly pleased that we do the baubles business so much better.
We are though peculiar in using the post-nominal letters for our awards. Apart from one or two ex-dominions, does any other country do it ? The USA has a panoply of medals and decorations, but you might never know the old airman’s achievement once he enters civil life; indeed, while he is still in uniform, you need an encyclopaedia in your hand to tell his distinctions from his other service medals.
We surely reward the loo-cleaners (and the lollipop ladies), especially those who have stuck it for 40 years - although as ever with any awards system it is a bit hit-or-miss. We had to bring back the BEM perhaps just to fill that need.
What PPRuNers might have noticed is how the rewards have become a little less for the very senior serving officers. A 3-star in my day would have expected a knighthood (or not); now he might “only” get a CB. The colonel or group captain often now has to be satisfied with an OBE rather than a CBE – indeed this time that is true for a 1-star. To my mind it makes plain that the recipient has still done a good job, but the job was less worth doing than it used to be.
However entitlements might have been degraded, there is still no doubt that considerable rank is needed to earn the higher awards. Rank gives gearing to whatever achievements have been made.
Yet, while the achievements even possible down the gradient from Sqn Ldr to LAC reduce drastically with rank, the one reward on offer is in each case the MBE. If what the Corporal did is as valuable as what the Sqn Ldr did, should not the Cpl be quickly promoted ? I say bring back the military BEM.
Looking at civvie street, we might all have wondered at the elevation of Barbara Windsor. Peter Simple (whose name be praised) imagined our monarchy in the hands of King Norman and Queen Doreen, but he never imagined the Second Class of our Most Excellent Order of the British Empire being occupied by a professional Cockney termagant using the very name his monarchs seemed to have discarded.
With respect to Hangarshuffle, almost every country has an honours system of some sort although who of us would know how fair those systems are. We might note the pictures of royal weddings in Scandinavia or Monaco and feel mildly pleased that we do the baubles business so much better.
We are though peculiar in using the post-nominal letters for our awards. Apart from one or two ex-dominions, does any other country do it ? The USA has a panoply of medals and decorations, but you might never know the old airman’s achievement once he enters civil life; indeed, while he is still in uniform, you need an encyclopaedia in your hand to tell his distinctions from his other service medals.
We surely reward the loo-cleaners (and the lollipop ladies), especially those who have stuck it for 40 years - although as ever with any awards system it is a bit hit-or-miss. We had to bring back the BEM perhaps just to fill that need.
What PPRuNers might have noticed is how the rewards have become a little less for the very senior serving officers. A 3-star in my day would have expected a knighthood (or not); now he might “only” get a CB. The colonel or group captain often now has to be satisfied with an OBE rather than a CBE – indeed this time that is true for a 1-star. To my mind it makes plain that the recipient has still done a good job, but the job was less worth doing than it used to be.
However entitlements might have been degraded, there is still no doubt that considerable rank is needed to earn the higher awards. Rank gives gearing to whatever achievements have been made.
Yet, while the achievements even possible down the gradient from Sqn Ldr to LAC reduce drastically with rank, the one reward on offer is in each case the MBE. If what the Corporal did is as valuable as what the Sqn Ldr did, should not the Cpl be quickly promoted ? I say bring back the military BEM.
Looking at civvie street, we might all have wondered at the elevation of Barbara Windsor. Peter Simple (whose name be praised) imagined our monarchy in the hands of King Norman and Queen Doreen, but he never imagined the Second Class of our Most Excellent Order of the British Empire being occupied by a professional Cockney termagant using the very name his monarchs seemed to have discarded.
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As I understand it, the BEM was abolished for the sake of appearance and political correctness. The thinking was why should non commissioned personnel have their own demeaning honour instead of qualifying for all honours on a level playing field? I believe it was a mistake to do so and agree with risbutler's balanced and reasonable post.