AAC Scandal
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E3scumbag:
An appropriate nickname, and certainly different from the usual 'gastarbeiter' or 'mongrel' that I have heard before. Anyway to your point.
The AAC invite other arm soldiers, officers and even other service chappies to apply for pilot selection, with a view to infecting, er I mean injecting the AAC with military experience and thereby tapping the vast pool of talent the rest of the Army/Services has to offer, in recognition that many potential Army aviators out there. Army aviators are made up of direct entry officers, enlisted AAC soldiers, E3 officers and other ranks, and surely that mixture is one of the reasons Army Aviation is successful and as colourful as it is.
In my short time with the AAC I have seen an RAF busdriver, female Cpl TA, SAS soldiers, cooks, bandsmen and even a draughtsman or two not only apply for selection but successfully pass the Army pilots course. All bring something to the party. Thankfully once they have completed a tour, not all are sent back, but each can apply for transfer. The transfer system is simple, with good confidentials, good form 2/3 reports, they are thrown at the mercy of a board and some, are successful; not all, because some are not good enough, and some are not needed.
What it has to do with rank is absolutely naff all. It is hardly the fault of the soldier/officer what rank they are, when the selection process loads them for a course and spits them out as a pilot. What kind of system would it be that callously takes 18 - 24 months to train a pilot, 2 year frontline minimum and then send them back without the chance at transfer?
As a true blue AAC chap myself, I have had many E3 aircrew take my rightful postings/promotions and cushy appointments. However, I am rather proud of the fact that the AAC is so equal opportunity in that respect. Once within the Army Aviation family, and particularly once transferred, everyone is treated on a level playing field. What other arm/regiment, even service would allow outsiders/newboys such a luxury?
E3, you sound like one of them chaps that enjoys the level playing field you have been given, but want to make it less level for others. One of them chaps that looks at the results of a board and complains about some of the names you see, probably because of some personal incident between you and the individual over the years. Thank goodness for the AAC boarding system, not perfect, but at least it has kosher transparancy.
Oh and for your information, uwchporfa is exactly who I think he/she is.
Devildawg:
As the QHI in question (as per the original thread), uwchporfa accused me of not only badly interpreting JSP318 rules, but of making auth sheets disappear. At no point did he/she accuse me of altering them.
An appropriate nickname, and certainly different from the usual 'gastarbeiter' or 'mongrel' that I have heard before. Anyway to your point.
The AAC invite other arm soldiers, officers and even other service chappies to apply for pilot selection, with a view to infecting, er I mean injecting the AAC with military experience and thereby tapping the vast pool of talent the rest of the Army/Services has to offer, in recognition that many potential Army aviators out there. Army aviators are made up of direct entry officers, enlisted AAC soldiers, E3 officers and other ranks, and surely that mixture is one of the reasons Army Aviation is successful and as colourful as it is.
In my short time with the AAC I have seen an RAF busdriver, female Cpl TA, SAS soldiers, cooks, bandsmen and even a draughtsman or two not only apply for selection but successfully pass the Army pilots course. All bring something to the party. Thankfully once they have completed a tour, not all are sent back, but each can apply for transfer. The transfer system is simple, with good confidentials, good form 2/3 reports, they are thrown at the mercy of a board and some, are successful; not all, because some are not good enough, and some are not needed.
What it has to do with rank is absolutely naff all. It is hardly the fault of the soldier/officer what rank they are, when the selection process loads them for a course and spits them out as a pilot. What kind of system would it be that callously takes 18 - 24 months to train a pilot, 2 year frontline minimum and then send them back without the chance at transfer?
As a true blue AAC chap myself, I have had many E3 aircrew take my rightful postings/promotions and cushy appointments. However, I am rather proud of the fact that the AAC is so equal opportunity in that respect. Once within the Army Aviation family, and particularly once transferred, everyone is treated on a level playing field. What other arm/regiment, even service would allow outsiders/newboys such a luxury?
E3, you sound like one of them chaps that enjoys the level playing field you have been given, but want to make it less level for others. One of them chaps that looks at the results of a board and complains about some of the names you see, probably because of some personal incident between you and the individual over the years. Thank goodness for the AAC boarding system, not perfect, but at least it has kosher transparancy.
Oh and for your information, uwchporfa is exactly who I think he/she is.
Devildawg:
As the QHI in question (as per the original thread), uwchporfa accused me of not only badly interpreting JSP318 rules, but of making auth sheets disappear. At no point did he/she accuse me of altering them.
2 years' training for 2 year's service? That sounds a really cost-effective way of doing things! Not.
Or is it just that Bwigadier Woopert of the Wedgiment doesn't consider that his chaps doing more than 2 years in the Corps to be conducive to 'pwoper soldierwing'......
Or is it just that Bwigadier Woopert of the Wedgiment doesn't consider that his chaps doing more than 2 years in the Corps to be conducive to 'pwoper soldierwing'......
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More moons back than I care to remember, (well 1967 actually), I came to the end of my first three year flying tour and was asked if I would like a second tour, "yes please", I replied, "but what about future promotion prospects?"
"If he wants further promotion he will have to go back and do another regimental tour first", came the answer from my parent corps.
At that time the Army had almost more aircraft than pilots but there was no way the AAC could promote me, the authority had to come from parent corps, who stuck to their guns.
Net result the Army lost one trained pilot with three years unit experience who wanted to stay in and fly! (at that time to transfer to the permanent cadre of the AAC one had to be a QHI).
Nothing seems to have changed that much!
"If he wants further promotion he will have to go back and do another regimental tour first", came the answer from my parent corps.
At that time the Army had almost more aircraft than pilots but there was no way the AAC could promote me, the authority had to come from parent corps, who stuck to their guns.
Net result the Army lost one trained pilot with three years unit experience who wanted to stay in and fly! (at that time to transfer to the permanent cadre of the AAC one had to be a QHI).
Nothing seems to have changed that much!
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Jeep,
Thanks for the vote of thanks for the name, I thought long and hard about that. Probably longer and harder than the board to select the transferee's.
You are more than correct, I did the age-old pastime of viewing the transfer board results and said the immortal words, how did he get it, why did he/she not get it. It is the same sport that is carried out across every corps/arm when the promotion board is released every year.
Thanks for the info about the training and selection, funnily enough i was aware of it already. I think you will find my point about who transfers was pretty similar to yours, I agree that the corps is better off, on the whole, for the people that transfer in, not so sure what the point of the RAF bowser mong was, as he transferred and then left PDQ afterwards, and i don't know if you have ever spent 24 hours on duty with him, I like the guy, but it was painful to say the least.
It WOULD be a callous system to take 18 - 24 months etc.... and not allow them a chance to transfer, but that is becoming the case more and more, we have the chance, a very limited one. I was witness to a brief last year that simply put said, we have enough now and it isn't likely to change in the next 5 years, thankyou, you can apply but don't hold your breath. We still seem to be filling up from the bottom and allowing people with the avation experience to return back to bending spanners, or cloud punching.
Whilst i recognise the fact that the supply and demand of new pilots is difficult to forecast and it changes as quickly as the delivery date for the first line regiments AH, it does seem that we are still throwing pilots through the course, albeit with a massive delay in the middle. All this without keeping the manpower with the aviation experience, by not allowing transfer and sending people back. I also recognise that some people are just not what the AAC want and therefore are not likely to transfer, surely this is then up to there line manager to point this out to them.
I know people can apply for a subsequent flying tour, thankfully. This then leaves the problem of promotion by your own branch or arm. This case may have been in the past to go back to your own arm, get promoted then reapply for a further tour, I am not convinced that you would be allowed to come back now after 2 -3 years away, when the AAC claims to have no shortage of pilots.
The whole shortage thing is another thread entirely, I just wish i had time to write it !
I still think you are wrong, as I am sure whatshisface is a little fuller in the figure or should I say operates your preferred aircraft type.
Thanks for the vote of thanks for the name, I thought long and hard about that. Probably longer and harder than the board to select the transferee's.
You are more than correct, I did the age-old pastime of viewing the transfer board results and said the immortal words, how did he get it, why did he/she not get it. It is the same sport that is carried out across every corps/arm when the promotion board is released every year.
Thanks for the info about the training and selection, funnily enough i was aware of it already. I think you will find my point about who transfers was pretty similar to yours, I agree that the corps is better off, on the whole, for the people that transfer in, not so sure what the point of the RAF bowser mong was, as he transferred and then left PDQ afterwards, and i don't know if you have ever spent 24 hours on duty with him, I like the guy, but it was painful to say the least.
It WOULD be a callous system to take 18 - 24 months etc.... and not allow them a chance to transfer, but that is becoming the case more and more, we have the chance, a very limited one. I was witness to a brief last year that simply put said, we have enough now and it isn't likely to change in the next 5 years, thankyou, you can apply but don't hold your breath. We still seem to be filling up from the bottom and allowing people with the avation experience to return back to bending spanners, or cloud punching.
Whilst i recognise the fact that the supply and demand of new pilots is difficult to forecast and it changes as quickly as the delivery date for the first line regiments AH, it does seem that we are still throwing pilots through the course, albeit with a massive delay in the middle. All this without keeping the manpower with the aviation experience, by not allowing transfer and sending people back. I also recognise that some people are just not what the AAC want and therefore are not likely to transfer, surely this is then up to there line manager to point this out to them.
I know people can apply for a subsequent flying tour, thankfully. This then leaves the problem of promotion by your own branch or arm. This case may have been in the past to go back to your own arm, get promoted then reapply for a further tour, I am not convinced that you would be allowed to come back now after 2 -3 years away, when the AAC claims to have no shortage of pilots.
The whole shortage thing is another thread entirely, I just wish i had time to write it !
I still think you are wrong, as I am sure whatshisface is a little fuller in the figure or should I say operates your preferred aircraft type.
Last edited by E3scumbag; 26th Jun 2002 at 09:54.
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I must say I agree with E3 in principle - it certainly isn't so black and white as Jeep makes out (good confidentials, Form 2s and 3s etc) - I was also at the brief where Manning and Records (God bless 'em!) said, particularly to E3 officers, that the AAC was not looking to transfer many people in the next 5 years. I don't think the left hand knows what the right hand is doing half the time anyway!!!
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Gentlemen Aviators,
All this tit for tat about transfers is a load of codsWALLOP. The AAC are canny and ruthless, that is why they won't badge you straight away. they give you 3 years to prove yourself and if you ain't good enough then it is Arreverderchi. I have flown with lots of peeps and it is true when people say,
"How the hell did they get through Middle Wallop."
Well that question remains unanswered but they do, that is why after three years when their true colours are identified they are sent back to whatever they were probably better at. In my case I was obviously better at flying coz I was transferred at the first attempt and then subsequently promoted by the AAC.
For those of you with difficulty in slang terms I have identifled a few for you below:
REDCAP----RMP (Royal Military Policeman/woman) it was on the telly
SNOWDROP----Person who believes that he has the power of a policeman. Usually seen on gate sentry at most RAF bases.
BLEEP----Royal Signals Personnel
TOMS----Private Soldiers
GODS----LYNX PILOTS
FLOPPIES----Gazelles or Gazelle Pilots
CRABS----Annoying creatures that walk sideways and strut around the beaches with pompous attitudes. Also associated with the Royal Air Force
GROUNDIES----Personnel who push and pull and refuel cabs and get no recognition for it
AAC----An organisation that is proud of its history, works all the hours that god sends without complaining, always produces the goods when it is needed, nuff said.
All this tit for tat about transfers is a load of codsWALLOP. The AAC are canny and ruthless, that is why they won't badge you straight away. they give you 3 years to prove yourself and if you ain't good enough then it is Arreverderchi. I have flown with lots of peeps and it is true when people say,
"How the hell did they get through Middle Wallop."
Well that question remains unanswered but they do, that is why after three years when their true colours are identified they are sent back to whatever they were probably better at. In my case I was obviously better at flying coz I was transferred at the first attempt and then subsequently promoted by the AAC.
For those of you with difficulty in slang terms I have identifled a few for you below:
REDCAP----RMP (Royal Military Policeman/woman) it was on the telly
SNOWDROP----Person who believes that he has the power of a policeman. Usually seen on gate sentry at most RAF bases.
BLEEP----Royal Signals Personnel
TOMS----Private Soldiers
GODS----LYNX PILOTS
FLOPPIES----Gazelles or Gazelle Pilots
CRABS----Annoying creatures that walk sideways and strut around the beaches with pompous attitudes. Also associated with the Royal Air Force
GROUNDIES----Personnel who push and pull and refuel cabs and get no recognition for it
AAC----An organisation that is proud of its history, works all the hours that god sends without complaining, always produces the goods when it is needed, nuff said.
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Eight Eights Blue
Very enlightening slang terms, me old.
But shouldn't it read:
REDCAP----RMP: love 'em or hate 'em, you know you need 'em.
SNOWDROP----That guy from Flying Complaints who keeps your arse out of the mire.
BLEEP----"MAYDAY MAYDAY" (thank fcuk for the Royal Signals)
TOMS----Backbone of the British Army
GODS----Admirals, generals and air marshals (yes, I know it hurts to say it)
FLOPPIES----Servicemen (any rank, any branch) after 6 pints
CRABS----Those with their feet on the ground
GROUNDIES----Personnel who push and pull and refuel cabs and get lots of recognition from those who care to give it
AAC---An organisation with certain individuals who are full of their own self-importance
Very enlightening slang terms, me old.
But shouldn't it read:
REDCAP----RMP: love 'em or hate 'em, you know you need 'em.
SNOWDROP----That guy from Flying Complaints who keeps your arse out of the mire.
BLEEP----"MAYDAY MAYDAY" (thank fcuk for the Royal Signals)
TOMS----Backbone of the British Army
GODS----Admirals, generals and air marshals (yes, I know it hurts to say it)
FLOPPIES----Servicemen (any rank, any branch) after 6 pints
CRABS----Those with their feet on the ground
GROUNDIES----Personnel who push and pull and refuel cabs and get lots of recognition from those who care to give it
AAC---An organisation with certain individuals who are full of their own self-importance
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Jeep, ur spot on albeit slightly grovelly! The person that started this thread (initially) wants his a** kicking. Sounds like somebody who is full of his own self importance. Probably one of those types who has only ever flown one aircraft type, always in the same theatre and been there for ages, do yourself and your corps a favour and move him on!!!
HR
Rock Apes is a term of endearment for the RAF Regiment.
Monkeys are the RMP or perhaps they were the CMP (they changed from Corps to Royal in 1945) when you knew them. The origin of both terms is not known but one explanation for the RMP being called Monkey's is that by lore, the day the baboons leave the Rock of Gibraltar, it will no longer be British. To ensure this never happens, in days of old, it was the job of the Provost Sergeant to feed them so they would stay. It seems to have worked up to now but nobody reckoned on President Blair and his policy of European appeasment.
Another explanation is during the days of a conscript Army, CMP/RMP of a robust nature were needed to control unruly soldiers. These men were not the sharpest tools in the box and henceforth were known as Monkeys because of their intelect.
Personally, I prefer the first explanation.
Rock Apes is a term of endearment for the RAF Regiment.
Monkeys are the RMP or perhaps they were the CMP (they changed from Corps to Royal in 1945) when you knew them. The origin of both terms is not known but one explanation for the RMP being called Monkey's is that by lore, the day the baboons leave the Rock of Gibraltar, it will no longer be British. To ensure this never happens, in days of old, it was the job of the Provost Sergeant to feed them so they would stay. It seems to have worked up to now but nobody reckoned on President Blair and his policy of European appeasment.
Another explanation is during the days of a conscript Army, CMP/RMP of a robust nature were needed to control unruly soldiers. These men were not the sharpest tools in the box and henceforth were known as Monkeys because of their intelect.
Personally, I prefer the first explanation.
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JEEP.
Sorry mate but this level playing field you keep refering to doesn't actually exsist. I don't know how long its been since you spent any time in the company of E3's but it sounds to me like its been a while. Too long at Wallop maybe. How many E3 QHI's do you know?
And it does have a lot to do with rank.
Why would the AAC transfer a SNCO AC Comd with a few hrs experience on 2nd or 3rd tour flying pay, hes going nowhere. It obviously makes sense to them to transfer the Cpl with 500 hrs and 12 years to do, who ,after finding out what a cake & a**e party he,s invited himself to, may decide to throw in his hand and go back to an outfit that recognises his potential at his job and not his ability to kiss a**e.
And when it comes to postings/promotions + cushy appts only an a**e would say they were rightfully his.
Who knows, you probably got mine!
Sorry mate but this level playing field you keep refering to doesn't actually exsist. I don't know how long its been since you spent any time in the company of E3's but it sounds to me like its been a while. Too long at Wallop maybe. How many E3 QHI's do you know?
And it does have a lot to do with rank.
Why would the AAC transfer a SNCO AC Comd with a few hrs experience on 2nd or 3rd tour flying pay, hes going nowhere. It obviously makes sense to them to transfer the Cpl with 500 hrs and 12 years to do, who ,after finding out what a cake & a**e party he,s invited himself to, may decide to throw in his hand and go back to an outfit that recognises his potential at his job and not his ability to kiss a**e.
And when it comes to postings/promotions + cushy appts only an a**e would say they were rightfully his.
Who knows, you probably got mine!
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Dazed and Confused
Sorry but I appear to have lost the thread............
Should this not be renamed - 'the Rogets Thesaurus entry for RMP/Snowdrop'?
If not the original thread has, some what been lost
Should this not be renamed - 'the Rogets Thesaurus entry for RMP/Snowdrop'?
If not the original thread has, some what been lost
Yonez, sorry got interrupted........ just finished with the AAC on a "short" tour and JEEP has a pretty good idea what he is talking about. Just a few things I noticed. E3 guys all managed to transfer, none wanted to go back to previous units . AND it wasn't just Offrs/SNCOs or JNCOs it was across the board.
Last edited by timex; 6th Jul 2002 at 15:40.
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timex,
Alas, not all E3 got transfered this year - though I think the majority (misguided fools) wanted to.
I think 5 regt in NI did the best of the lot - but I reckon it will be the usual 'bun fight' to get across in the future.
Still who cares! - so long as there are plenty of bums on seats - on paper at least - the corps can afford to let experience walk out of the door.
Or is that answer B !
Alas, not all E3 got transfered this year - though I think the majority (misguided fools) wanted to.
I think 5 regt in NI did the best of the lot - but I reckon it will be the usual 'bun fight' to get across in the future.
Still who cares! - so long as there are plenty of bums on seats - on paper at least - the corps can afford to let experience walk out of the door.
Or is that answer B !
Bandicoot, totally agree. Sad thing is the AAC relies on the vast amount of external experience to boost it,s own. To lose this will always be a shame. Sadly others make the decisions, however bad!!
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As an ex member, I feel qualified to reply!
Although this thread has gone slightly 'off mesage' from the initial post I feel the following might be of value :-
Don't delude yourself that the AAC cares about your career progression unless you are a Regular Officer. The rest are just numbers, regardless of how important you think you are as a QHI or vastly experienced E3 officer - you are just a peg in the appointers board! Make no mistake this is an organisation run by Regular Officers for the benefit of Regular Officers! Believe me, SNCO pilots (and I was one) mean nothing, Reg C (LE) officers (and I was one) mean nothing - the sooner you chaps catch on and start looking after No 1 the better you will be! We do ourselves no favours accepting piecemeal extensions just to alleviate short-term shortages in manning to be cast aside at the next surplus. (Not my own personal experience, I'll admit!). By accepting these you are the appointers dream!
Get out, get a licence, get a life!!
Although this thread has gone slightly 'off mesage' from the initial post I feel the following might be of value :-
Don't delude yourself that the AAC cares about your career progression unless you are a Regular Officer. The rest are just numbers, regardless of how important you think you are as a QHI or vastly experienced E3 officer - you are just a peg in the appointers board! Make no mistake this is an organisation run by Regular Officers for the benefit of Regular Officers! Believe me, SNCO pilots (and I was one) mean nothing, Reg C (LE) officers (and I was one) mean nothing - the sooner you chaps catch on and start looking after No 1 the better you will be! We do ourselves no favours accepting piecemeal extensions just to alleviate short-term shortages in manning to be cast aside at the next surplus. (Not my own personal experience, I'll admit!). By accepting these you are the appointers dream!
Get out, get a licence, get a life!!
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I am a bit confusd.......are you actually saying that the AAC is manned by non proffesional aircrew?
Do guys actually only serve one productive tour then go back to being a soldier?
How cost effective is this?
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
.................
Do guys actually only serve one productive tour then go back to being a soldier?
How cost effective is this?
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
.................