Children have no place in the British Army.
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a young officer friend was dismissed the service by Court Martial for failing to attend a mess dinner
Mark Bostridge would gain more respect from me if he wrote an article on what he really thought - this would be titled "There is no place for an army in Britain". It is quite obvious Bostridge thinks that soldiering is a disreputable profession (his remarks about the "chilling testimony to the militarisation of our youth" for example). How a member of a profession whose reputation is currently as low as it has ever been can presume to occupy the moral high ground in these matters is simply incredible.
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The Grauniad just gets worse, and it started at a dismal rating. It is regarded as an authoritative newspaper only by the hard of thinking or the utterly brainwashed. 'Nuff said!
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I still think the Guardian is an excellent newspaper - compared to the route the Daily Telegraph has recently gone down (celebrity focused- check out its recent online editions-puerile. The Grad will publish provocative stories and articles involving the military (like this one), doesn't necessarily agree or take a stance on it (that was the authors alone, with some good spikey replies below it, as well).
Some berk at the top of the thread posted a dig in at me, and suggested I was a pacifist, but what an earth that has to do with it, I've no idea. Pacifist for having a differing opinion?...where are we - 1914?
Many service people end up with differing views and ideas at the end of a long career (like mine), with a more reflective view of what they saw, did.
Still think for all the many positive attributes any Service brings to a young person, under 18's should be kept out. At the end of the day, people are recruited in to fight, one way and another. Under 18 is way too young an age to really reflect upon that, and to decide upon that. My opinion only, of course. But interesting if it is true no under 18's are recruited elsewhere in Europe. And I still think the military recruiters are entirely cynical about who they target for recruiting.
For many years, Sunderland's Army recruiting office has had the pay rates and pay structure in large letters right in the window display (especially the training and under 18 pay), above everything else. We know why that is, of course.
HS.
Some berk at the top of the thread posted a dig in at me, and suggested I was a pacifist, but what an earth that has to do with it, I've no idea. Pacifist for having a differing opinion?...where are we - 1914?
Many service people end up with differing views and ideas at the end of a long career (like mine), with a more reflective view of what they saw, did.
Still think for all the many positive attributes any Service brings to a young person, under 18's should be kept out. At the end of the day, people are recruited in to fight, one way and another. Under 18 is way too young an age to really reflect upon that, and to decide upon that. My opinion only, of course. But interesting if it is true no under 18's are recruited elsewhere in Europe. And I still think the military recruiters are entirely cynical about who they target for recruiting.
For many years, Sunderland's Army recruiting office has had the pay rates and pay structure in large letters right in the window display (especially the training and under 18 pay), above everything else. We know why that is, of course.
HS.
I arrived on my first squadron on my 17th birthday, following training.
I was then responsible for rather expensive aircraft and people's lives. I might have been young, but I was certainly grown-up thanks to the RAF.
The people I went to school with were still kids...
I was then responsible for rather expensive aircraft and people's lives. I might have been young, but I was certainly grown-up thanks to the RAF.
The people I went to school with were still kids...
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Its an old theme, but one to which the MoD has responded in the past. Soldiers (Sailors and Airmen) are no longer officially posted to "combat zones" before they are 18.
Also, whilst UK residents are not officially considered to be adult until they are 18, it is not strictly true to say that they are considered to be children at age 17.
The UK recognises the age 16 as being one where an individual may be employed, and the Courts attribute a greater knowledge and responsibility to a child at 12 years old, than say a child of 8.
This level of understanding increases with age, unless the child becomes a Cavalry officer, in which case it remains at 12.
Also, whilst UK residents are not officially considered to be adult until they are 18, it is not strictly true to say that they are considered to be children at age 17.
The UK recognises the age 16 as being one where an individual may be employed, and the Courts attribute a greater knowledge and responsibility to a child at 12 years old, than say a child of 8.
This level of understanding increases with age, unless the child becomes a Cavalry officer, in which case it remains at 12.
I did an odd mix of A-levels at two different schools, and saw the same RAF recruiting team twice. The first time, at an absolutely awful school in the middle of a council estate, I was told that if I joined up and worked really, really hard, I too could live in a Nissen hut and be a mess steward serving meals to real people - or something along those lines.
Then, at one of the best grammar schools in southeast England, the presentation went essentially: "Pilot. You could be a pilot. Look at this Tornado. Look how cool it is. Pilot. Pilot. Go to Cranwell and be a pilot."
I don't think anyone in the group I was in had ever been interested, but in both cases presentation was seen as utterly inept and patronising, and certainly nobody was interested thereafter. There was, I can be clear, no risk of anyone leaving with a belief that war was cool. The irony of it all was that I had been told on three separate occasions during careers events that I was an ideal military officer, which was so obviously untrue to me and anyone who knew me that it was all quite hilarious.
P
Then, at one of the best grammar schools in southeast England, the presentation went essentially: "Pilot. You could be a pilot. Look at this Tornado. Look how cool it is. Pilot. Pilot. Go to Cranwell and be a pilot."
I don't think anyone in the group I was in had ever been interested, but in both cases presentation was seen as utterly inept and patronising, and certainly nobody was interested thereafter. There was, I can be clear, no risk of anyone leaving with a belief that war was cool. The irony of it all was that I had been told on three separate occasions during careers events that I was an ideal military officer, which was so obviously untrue to me and anyone who knew me that it was all quite hilarious.
P
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I did an odd mix of A-levels at two different schools, and saw the same RAF recruiting team twice. The first time, at an absolutely awful school in the middle of a council estate, I was told that if I joined up and worked really, really hard, I too could live in a Nissen hut and be a mess steward serving meals to real people - or something along those lines.
Then, at one of the best grammar schools in southeast England, the presentation went essentially: "Pilot. You could be a pilot. Look at this Tornado. Look how cool it is. Pilot. Pilot. Go to Cranwell and be a pilot."
I don't think anyone in the group I was in had ever been interested, but in both cases presentation was seen as utterly inept and patronising, and certainly nobody was interested thereafter. There was, I can be clear, no risk of anyone leaving with a belief that war was cool. The irony of it all was that I had been told on three separate occasions during careers events that I was an ideal military officer, which was so obviously untrue to me and anyone who knew me that it was all quite hilarious.
P
Then, at one of the best grammar schools in southeast England, the presentation went essentially: "Pilot. You could be a pilot. Look at this Tornado. Look how cool it is. Pilot. Pilot. Go to Cranwell and be a pilot."
I don't think anyone in the group I was in had ever been interested, but in both cases presentation was seen as utterly inept and patronising, and certainly nobody was interested thereafter. There was, I can be clear, no risk of anyone leaving with a belief that war was cool. The irony of it all was that I had been told on three separate occasions during careers events that I was an ideal military officer, which was so obviously untrue to me and anyone who knew me that it was all quite hilarious.
P
Looks like my chaps will keep going into the Guards, then.
At a careers meeting a master at my school expressed doubts about my suitability as an RAF officer, as he didn't think I was "suave enough" (my mother got quite indignant).
In fairness he was probably right, but fortunately being "suave" wasn't really a job requirement in the tanker force
In fairness he was probably right, but fortunately being "suave" wasn't really a job requirement in the tanker force
FZjr told me that when he was on a recruiting team they went to a school in the Midlands.
Headmaster: "Well how did the presentation go?"
FZjr: "I believe you may have issues with two of your students, one on the back row appears to be armed and the last one on the front row to the right has a very extreme outlook on life and the armed forces in general. Apart from that it went OK."
Headmaster: "Oh, I'll have words about the one at the back ... again. The one at the front, I'm afraid, is on the staff!
Headmaster: "Well how did the presentation go?"
FZjr: "I believe you may have issues with two of your students, one on the back row appears to be armed and the last one on the front row to the right has a very extreme outlook on life and the armed forces in general. Apart from that it went OK."
Headmaster: "Oh, I'll have words about the one at the back ... again. The one at the front, I'm afraid, is on the staff!
The best story ever Youngest RAF aircrew in combat? [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums
Obituary: Tom Dobney | News | The Guardian
Posted by Tommy Tipee
14th Sep 2006, 01:32
Thomas Dobney added 4 years to his age and joined the RAF as a pilot in 1941 at the age of only 14.
After training in Canada, he was awarded his wings at 15 and was posted to a Whitley bomber squadron.
He flew over 20 operations before his true age was revealed when his estranged father saw him in a phptograph talking to King GeorgeVI who had visited his station in East Anglia.
The astonished father contacted the Air Ministry to ask why his 15 year old
son was dressed in a pilot's uniform and talking to the King. Thus his true age emerged.
He was immediately discharged with a letter saying "The reasons are soley that you are below the minimum age".
He rejoined in 1943, but suffered serious injuries in a crash following an engine failure on take off, and by the time he recovered the war had ended.
He remained in the RAF, flew in the Berlin Airlift and became a pilot in the King's Flight.
He then joined the Metropolitan Police before returning to the RAF as an Air Traffic Controller, and subsequently became a deputy art editor with the Daily Express in Manchester.
Tom Dobney died of cancer in Cheadle Hulme, Cheshire in April 2001.
Obituary: Tom Dobney | News | The Guardian
Posted by Tommy Tipee
14th Sep 2006, 01:32
Thomas Dobney added 4 years to his age and joined the RAF as a pilot in 1941 at the age of only 14.
After training in Canada, he was awarded his wings at 15 and was posted to a Whitley bomber squadron.
He flew over 20 operations before his true age was revealed when his estranged father saw him in a phptograph talking to King GeorgeVI who had visited his station in East Anglia.
The astonished father contacted the Air Ministry to ask why his 15 year old
son was dressed in a pilot's uniform and talking to the King. Thus his true age emerged.
He was immediately discharged with a letter saying "The reasons are soley that you are below the minimum age".
He rejoined in 1943, but suffered serious injuries in a crash following an engine failure on take off, and by the time he recovered the war had ended.
He remained in the RAF, flew in the Berlin Airlift and became a pilot in the King's Flight.
He then joined the Metropolitan Police before returning to the RAF as an Air Traffic Controller, and subsequently became a deputy art editor with the Daily Express in Manchester.
Tom Dobney died of cancer in Cheadle Hulme, Cheshire in April 2001.
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Girls too!
At the height of Axis bombing of Malta, girls as young as 14-years of age were recruited by the RAF as aircraft plotters:
‘… twenty British girls were needed for training in No 8 Sector Operations Centre, undertaking duties similar to those carried out by the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force (WAAF) in Britain … . They … began in June along with Pauline Longyear, Michael Longyear’s elder sister; she was fourteen years old. This was all part of Hugh Lloyd’s push to alleviate his manpower crisis.’
‘… Marion Gould, a sixteen-year old British plotter … .’
The extracts are taken from the recently published Malta’s Greater Siege & Adrian Warburton DSO* DFC** DFC (USA), by Paul McDonald.
‘… twenty British girls were needed for training in No 8 Sector Operations Centre, undertaking duties similar to those carried out by the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force (WAAF) in Britain … . They … began in June along with Pauline Longyear, Michael Longyear’s elder sister; she was fourteen years old. This was all part of Hugh Lloyd’s push to alleviate his manpower crisis.’
‘… Marion Gould, a sixteen-year old British plotter … .’
The extracts are taken from the recently published Malta’s Greater Siege & Adrian Warburton DSO* DFC** DFC (USA), by Paul McDonald.
I gather that 18 years of age soldiers are permitted on active service?
If so, it is of passing interest that 101 years ago the lowest age permitted was 19 years, and immediately pre- that war, was 20 years for young men to serve in "the colonies" [with or without combat].
And yet I have the strong belief that youngsters matured mentally if not physically far earlier in those bad old days, partly as a result of leaving school at 12 years and needing to work to support the large families of that era.
If so, it is of passing interest that 101 years ago the lowest age permitted was 19 years, and immediately pre- that war, was 20 years for young men to serve in "the colonies" [with or without combat].
And yet I have the strong belief that youngsters matured mentally if not physically far earlier in those bad old days, partly as a result of leaving school at 12 years and needing to work to support the large families of that era.
I wanted to join at 16, wasn't accepted - fair enough. at 17 I applied again, and finally entered just turned 18 - Those 2 years did nothing to curb my enthusiasm, I wouldn't have been exploited, i'd have been doing what I wanted to do.
And to concur with a point above, I spent some time at home after 6 month in service, and even at 18 I was so much more mature than those i'd left behind, they made me cringe!
And to concur with a point above, I spent some time at home after 6 month in service, and even at 18 I was so much more mature than those i'd left behind, they made me cringe!
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My son is 16yrs old and is currently at the Army Foundation College, Harrogate. In the three months he's been there, he has transformed from a typical teenager to a fine young man. It's done him the world of good.
He goes on to specialist training in February and we couldn't be prouder. The article is complete tosh.
He goes on to specialist training in February and we couldn't be prouder. The article is complete tosh.
I passed OASC at 15 and won an RAF Scholarship to RAFC.
But I then had to wait nearly 2 years before I was able to do the Special Flying Award PPL training which was part of the RAF Scholarship scheme...
Like several of my contemporaries, I held a pilot's licence before a driving licence!
But I then had to wait nearly 2 years before I was able to do the Special Flying Award PPL training which was part of the RAF Scholarship scheme...
Like several of my contemporaries, I held a pilot's licence before a driving licence!
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Joined at 16, best decision I ever made. Commissioned later in my career and lost 5 years pension if reckonable service counted from taking the shilling. Never got pregnant though