Vulcan: who pressed THE button?
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TL, not really. They enabled or inhibited the bomb door open signal provided the bomb door selector was set to Auto and the same for the bomb firing pulse
The bomb doors could always be opened manually and the bomb firing buttons were not inhibited.
The firing pulses were probably routed through Panel ER to initiate the detonation sequence.
The bomb doors could always be opened manually and the bomb firing buttons were not inhibited.
The firing pulses were probably routed through Panel ER to initiate the detonation sequence.
Single seaters - Jaguar, (Harrier not equipped) 2 man principle was maintained by using the RAFP HAS guard as the second man. He would not open the HAS without a valid release. Buccaneer, pilot had the attack selector and bomb door control, nav had the weapon switches.
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T7a, I wonder what training was given to the RAF P. As everyone had to do a course at RAFSupU so that they could be assessed as competent I would have thought the RAFP would need since training too.
Interesting that in this whole thread nobody there has only been one passing mention of the aircraft which actually did drop nuclear weapons, ie the Valiant. A number of weapons of differing types were dropped during Operation Grapple at Christmas Island in 1957 and 1958. I suppose it is understandable that since they were withdrawn from service in 1965 the Valiants have become, to some extent, the "forgotten V bomber", but they do hold this unique distinction, if distinction it is.
Somebody had obviously been watching Dr Strangelove!
In the 70s it was decided that bomb doors should be opened manually somewhat earlier in case of unknown battle damage or the failure of one of the hydraulic pipes.
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TTN, my uncle dropped one. I only ever went in a Valiant once but that was a tanker. By 1964 the Valiant had been transferred to the TBF and the only V at the time with a lay down weapon.
In a way the Victor was also little remembered as a bomber as it too went out of service in 1965. The Victor 2 was a missile carrier and not a bomber.
In a way the Victor was also little remembered as a bomber as it too went out of service in 1965. The Victor 2 was a missile carrier and not a bomber.
PN - I think you might be confusing Command and Control of the release and maintenance of the 2 man principle with the RAFSupU role in ensuring crew procedures were correct. All the plod had to do was compare what he was told with what he had in writing. (admittedly not always as straightforward as might be imagined!)
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T7a, thank you, not confusing just wondering to what extent he could identify an improper action. I know the US Air Police were indoctrinated to 'no initiative' but were trained to give the nav the SEF code if automatic PAL failed.
I wonder if any of you flew during the period when Denis Healey was Defence Secretary - I clearly recall an interview much later in his political career when he was asked about the UK's nuclear deterrent and said simply:
"oh that, well we would never have used it of course"
Although that certainly wasn't what he said earlier in his career when he referred to a deterrent as being essential. It did make me wonder if we were bluffing it out for at least 6 years though.
Is it also true that Navs were told the location of their targets in Mother Russia and sworn to take it to the grave with them - I remember that being announced at the end of the original "Fighter Pilot" series, albeit said in reference to Buccaneer Navs (for the guy who made it through the course). I would have thought they handed you one of those red snap cards as you dashed out to the jet - why risk it being compromised in advance ?
"oh that, well we would never have used it of course"
Although that certainly wasn't what he said earlier in his career when he referred to a deterrent as being essential. It did make me wonder if we were bluffing it out for at least 6 years though.
Is it also true that Navs were told the location of their targets in Mother Russia and sworn to take it to the grave with them - I remember that being announced at the end of the original "Fighter Pilot" series, albeit said in reference to Buccaneer Navs (for the guy who made it through the course). I would have thought they handed you one of those red snap cards as you dashed out to the jet - why risk it being compromised in advance ?
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Grapple
Interesting book about Grapple. ISBN 978 1 84415 747 1. May still be available from P&S. I read it several years ago. it stimulated my interest in the topic.
Fonsini
There's an interesting interview clip in the Guy Martin Channel 4 programme on the Vulcan which may answer your question.
A Vulcan nav(?) talks about many years later meeting a Russian woman, talking to her for a while then asking where she was from - it turned out she was from his target city. He admits to being so shocked that he had to walk away.
He also speaks about spending time memorising target details from intel (presumably satellite photos) so that they knew their targets incredibly well.
Pontius may be able to elaborate.
There's an interesting interview clip in the Guy Martin Channel 4 programme on the Vulcan which may answer your question.
A Vulcan nav(?) talks about many years later meeting a Russian woman, talking to her for a while then asking where she was from - it turned out she was from his target city. He admits to being so shocked that he had to walk away.
He also speaks about spending time memorising target details from intel (presumably satellite photos) so that they knew their targets incredibly well.
Pontius may be able to elaborate.
Target study was an essential part of a V-force crew's work. Yes we had maps and other material, but to this day most of us will not reveal our actual targets, no matter what alleged de-classification might now exist.
As for the crocodile tears from some of the ex-Vulcan aircrew in that programme featuring Guy Martin, well, let's just say that their views certainly weren't typical.
As for scramble authentication codes, they came in 2 parts, half of which were held by the pilots and the other half by the lower deck, both halves in double sealed envelopes in polythene. When the scramble order came over the RT or telebrief, each part was checked and if the code was valid, off you went. We weren't supposed to open the envelopes until the order came, but most of us who'd been around for a few exercises made sure that the envelope was opened in advance, so that there wouldn't be any fumbling at a critical moment....
On one exercise, the wind was out of peacetime limits for a take-off from the ORP end, so we were ordered round to the other end. Then came the scramble order; about a dozen Vulcans released their brakes and charged forward, only to stop suddenly because the first aircraft hadn't launched. After about 30 seconds, he did so and off we all went, somewhat perplexed.
When the lead crew came to hand their codes back to the vault after the exercise, the pilots' code card was torn and rather soggy. It transpired that the brand new co-pilot, flying with his Flt Cdr, hadn't pre-opened the envelope and couldn't then rip the polythene open with his gloved hands - so he'd dropped his oxy mask and bitten the thing open, following his captain's 'enthusiastic suggestion'!
As for the crocodile tears from some of the ex-Vulcan aircrew in that programme featuring Guy Martin, well, let's just say that their views certainly weren't typical.
As for scramble authentication codes, they came in 2 parts, half of which were held by the pilots and the other half by the lower deck, both halves in double sealed envelopes in polythene. When the scramble order came over the RT or telebrief, each part was checked and if the code was valid, off you went. We weren't supposed to open the envelopes until the order came, but most of us who'd been around for a few exercises made sure that the envelope was opened in advance, so that there wouldn't be any fumbling at a critical moment....
On one exercise, the wind was out of peacetime limits for a take-off from the ORP end, so we were ordered round to the other end. Then came the scramble order; about a dozen Vulcans released their brakes and charged forward, only to stop suddenly because the first aircraft hadn't launched. After about 30 seconds, he did so and off we all went, somewhat perplexed.
When the lead crew came to hand their codes back to the vault after the exercise, the pilots' code card was torn and rather soggy. It transpired that the brand new co-pilot, flying with his Flt Cdr, hadn't pre-opened the envelope and couldn't then rip the polythene open with his gloved hands - so he'd dropped his oxy mask and bitten the thing open, following his captain's 'enthusiastic suggestion'!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Talk of which were targets seems to have been 'yes you can' and changed some years later to 'no you can't' probably as some targets are now in friendly nation states.
As for authentication, the process has changed a number of times. In the mid-60s it was rather less formal than BEagle relates.
In the vault I had a large board. On the board was a large number of cup hooks. In each was a bulldog clip and secured in each was a number of HMSO envelopes - RELRED, SCRAM, SCRAMCAN, POSREL. In each envelope was the appropriate code.
At one time the code was a word. For one exercise only the lead aircraft was given the code and all other aircraft were ordered to write down the codeword transmitted. We all dutifully wrote down the word APPLECART as relayed by ATC. At the debrief we were asked what we had heard and duly reported it. Subsequently we were told the actually transmitted codeword was APOTHECARY.
The exercise release codeword was easier NOURISHMENT but of course that was a lot word to broadcast in clear or by morse in a jamming enviroment. Later the codewords were changed to a simpler trigraph such as JULIET FOUR BRAVO. The same HMSO envelopes were used.
I have also come across stiff waterproof paxolin resin cards that had to be broken up (not easy) and waterproof foil envelopes - both very secure.
As for authentication, the process has changed a number of times. In the mid-60s it was rather less formal than BEagle relates.
In the vault I had a large board. On the board was a large number of cup hooks. In each was a bulldog clip and secured in each was a number of HMSO envelopes - RELRED, SCRAM, SCRAMCAN, POSREL. In each envelope was the appropriate code.
At one time the code was a word. For one exercise only the lead aircraft was given the code and all other aircraft were ordered to write down the codeword transmitted. We all dutifully wrote down the word APPLECART as relayed by ATC. At the debrief we were asked what we had heard and duly reported it. Subsequently we were told the actually transmitted codeword was APOTHECARY.
The exercise release codeword was easier NOURISHMENT but of course that was a lot word to broadcast in clear or by morse in a jamming enviroment. Later the codewords were changed to a simpler trigraph such as JULIET FOUR BRAVO. The same HMSO envelopes were used.
I have also come across stiff waterproof paxolin resin cards that had to be broken up (not easy) and waterproof foil envelopes - both very secure.
RAF Police
Ta17 and PN. As one of these RAFP back in the day, well late 70’s early 80’s, I can tell you that there was little or no training for the HAS guard tasked with the enforcement of the NLZ and release of the aircraft. Remember at this time shifts of RAFP at bases such as Bruggen, where I was based from 84 to 88, consisted of over 50 of us guarding SSA and QRA as well as “blues” duties and so we were frequently undermanned. HAS guard was just about the lowest job on the shift often allocated to the newly arrived LAC/A/Cpls as well as being a punishment job for those that were not to be trusted on blues. At its simplest of course there was no need for training – you were issued with a sealed envelope and the instruction that if the hooter went off (QRA for real, Sqn dispersal on exercise) your task was to open envelope and compare the 4 digit number with the one that the pilot would write (on something?) and hold up to you. If they matched you could open the HAS door and stand well back, if they didn’t under no circumstances were you to open door. I presume that if numbers didn’t match for whatever reason you could summon assistance by radio to sort out any issues although we were told that on exercise it could be a test that a WST team could throw in. The main complication that came up was in a HAS where there were 2 Jaguar aircraft and the one at the back was released first. Again this was an exercise scenario that seemed to be regularly practiced, although there was no formal instruction on what we should do if the front aircraft instead of just taxying forward to allow the other to pass just carried on and launched, although thinking now we could have stopped it at the outer dispersal gates which also had to be opened by the RAFP SAT Team.
Although individuals were not formally tested of course the whole Security Squadron was annually tested by the WST Team from the ASU on the overall procedures, just don’t mention Bruggen 85 when the Sqn failed for the only time – that was a fun few months before the retest, with leave and stand-down’s cancelled and even training off nights. Oh the memories.
Although individuals were not formally tested of course the whole Security Squadron was annually tested by the WST Team from the ASU on the overall procedures, just don’t mention Bruggen 85 when the Sqn failed for the only time – that was a fun few months before the retest, with leave and stand-down’s cancelled and even training off nights. Oh the memories.
Without revealing your target cities (perfectly understandable - even now) I assume that assets such as factories, broadcasters were targets and not just general entire city areas?
I realise that in itself may be an even more sensitive question to ask - but wonder if you can talk in generalities.
Most people without detailed knowledge would assume that because a nuclear weapon is so destructive, you just need to target the general area - i.e. an entire city, rather than a specific part of it, or feature, or building.
I ask because when working at TV Centre in London, I had always assumed that it would have been at the centre of a smoking thermonuclear crater from a Russian Warhead if anything had ever happened (although some of you may think that might not necessarily be a bad thing)!
I realise that in itself may be an even more sensitive question to ask - but wonder if you can talk in generalities.
Most people without detailed knowledge would assume that because a nuclear weapon is so destructive, you just need to target the general area - i.e. an entire city, rather than a specific part of it, or feature, or building.
I ask because when working at TV Centre in London, I had always assumed that it would have been at the centre of a smoking thermonuclear crater from a Russian Warhead if anything had ever happened (although some of you may think that might not necessarily be a bad thing)!
Last edited by tartare; 23rd Dec 2015 at 02:09.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Tartar, actually none of those featured on the target lists. Our targets were always military targets, of course there may have been collateral damage.
A fascinating thread, may I thank the participants for their recollections of a chilling part of our history please?
If you are interested in target philosophy, may I recommend 'the silent deep' just published by Hennessey. Its a history of the Cold War UK Submarine Service, but has a long section on deterrence including a memo from the 1970s on what effects the deterrent was intended to achieve and how this could be done. It lays out in some detail the options open to the UK at the time, and what effects could be gained from different options and why.
Its a chilling piece of staffwork, and well worth reading as part of an excellent wider book.
If you are interested in target philosophy, may I recommend 'the silent deep' just published by Hennessey. Its a history of the Cold War UK Submarine Service, but has a long section on deterrence including a memo from the 1970s on what effects the deterrent was intended to achieve and how this could be done. It lays out in some detail the options open to the UK at the time, and what effects could be gained from different options and why.
Its a chilling piece of staffwork, and well worth reading as part of an excellent wider book.
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Tartare
Without revealing your target cities (perfectly understandable - even now) I assume that assets such as factories, broadcasters were targets and not just general entire city areas?
I realise that in itself may be an even more sensitive question to ask - but wonder if you can talk in generalities.
Without revealing your target cities (perfectly understandable - even now) I assume that assets such as factories, broadcasters were targets and not just general entire city areas?
I realise that in itself may be an even more sensitive question to ask - but wonder if you can talk in generalities.