Answer yes or no to the RAF bombing Syria this coming week.
"Good point, this. Rationality is a contested concept in politics and any other "science" involving human behaviour, and the West gives it too great a credence"
I accept the point and I'm no particular fan of Mr Erdogan, one way or the other. But I expect that one does not reach the highest office of his country without some sense of self-preservation and political savvy. What possible motivation or lapse of judgment could account for supporting a chaotic and deadly upheaval of one's own country - a country which has long sought to establish a secular government? If nothing else it would amount to political, if not biological suicide.
I accept the point and I'm no particular fan of Mr Erdogan, one way or the other. But I expect that one does not reach the highest office of his country without some sense of self-preservation and political savvy. What possible motivation or lapse of judgment could account for supporting a chaotic and deadly upheaval of one's own country - a country which has long sought to establish a secular government? If nothing else it would amount to political, if not biological suicide.
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What possible motivation or lapse of judgment could account for supporting a chaotic and deadly upheaval of one's own country - a country which has long sought to establish a secular government?
The legacy of secularism left by Ataturk is being steadily unpicked. Don't forget the AKP is an openly Islamist party, which means that it sees Islamic principles guiding and informing the administration of the state. Erdogan's big project is to get a sufficient majority to pass constitutional reforms that will turn the presidency from a European-style figurehead into a US-style executive, just another stop along his "bus ride" of democracy: "once I get to my stop, I'm getting off", as he allegedly once said to the King of Jordan. His even bigger project is the restoration of Turkey's role as a leading Sunni power in the Middle East, hence their involvement in funding Islamist rebels in Libya and Syria - Neo-Ottomanism, if you like.
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Too late now.
Okay then keep the thread going...This article by AG is too late, but it doesn't matter because they knew the facts but voted for war and hang the actual benefit, the consequences and reality anyway.
16 x RAF Fighter-bombers into Cyprus deployed, dropped 14 bombs in two attacks, on a largely defunct target. Also did some stuff in Iraq but that's old news. Its political, shop window bombing then of no repeat no tactical value whatsoever... (but with incredible risk for the downed aircrew if it goes wrong, of course)?
The targets are not there.
Valued against the splits it exposed, the anger it stirred and the risk it puts ordinary people (like me, selfishly) on our own streets from revenge (because now they have a motive and an excuse and an easy target and the probable opportunity).
Already had 1 attack in alleged revenge, admittedly a madman by the sound of things, in London. I somehow dread more madmen.
And the cost in cash to keep this going. This farce... we now have winter floods causing very heavy damage that will require tens of millions of GBP to rectify, an economy really not moving in the right direction at all under Osbornomics, manufacturing down, imports up, balance of trade yet again in the red... We are not in reality.
As the alleged comedian said, they voted for the war because it made them feel important.
HS.
16 x RAF Fighter-bombers into Cyprus deployed, dropped 14 bombs in two attacks, on a largely defunct target. Also did some stuff in Iraq but that's old news. Its political, shop window bombing then of no repeat no tactical value whatsoever... (but with incredible risk for the downed aircrew if it goes wrong, of course)?
The targets are not there.
Valued against the splits it exposed, the anger it stirred and the risk it puts ordinary people (like me, selfishly) on our own streets from revenge (because now they have a motive and an excuse and an easy target and the probable opportunity).
Already had 1 attack in alleged revenge, admittedly a madman by the sound of things, in London. I somehow dread more madmen.
And the cost in cash to keep this going. This farce... we now have winter floods causing very heavy damage that will require tens of millions of GBP to rectify, an economy really not moving in the right direction at all under Osbornomics, manufacturing down, imports up, balance of trade yet again in the red... We are not in reality.
As the alleged comedian said, they voted for the war because it made them feel important.
HS.
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Hangarshuffle,
I can see your feelings about this operation and your anger at the vote not going what is obviously your way. But your post is quite wrong beyond expressing the depth of your ire.
You may rest assured our air ops are running well and tasking is well considered. Current force allocation is well matched to operational requirements. Please be aware we are not just plinking targets.
I think you might do well to sort out in your head which bits are current operational facts and which bits are Hangarshuffle angst. As for keeping the thread going, it seems to be stimulating mostly worthwhile discussion so I would agree with your call.
I can see your feelings about this operation and your anger at the vote not going what is obviously your way. But your post is quite wrong beyond expressing the depth of your ire.
You may rest assured our air ops are running well and tasking is well considered. Current force allocation is well matched to operational requirements. Please be aware we are not just plinking targets.
I think you might do well to sort out in your head which bits are current operational facts and which bits are Hangarshuffle angst. As for keeping the thread going, it seems to be stimulating mostly worthwhile discussion so I would agree with your call.
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Hangarshuffle..."an economy really not moving in the right direction at all under Osbornomics". Would that mean not going in the direction that YOU want it to go? Because it is going in a far better direction than had it been left to the alternative set of chumps.
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Originally Posted by Simplythebeast
Hangarshuffle..."an economy really not moving in the right direction at all under Osbornomics". Would that mean not going in the direction that YOU want it to go? Because it is going in a far better direction than had it been left to the alternative set of chumps.
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Interesting BBC News article on UK operations over Syria.
Are UK bombs making a difference in Syria? - BBC News
It is of course still early days. But given the limited number of UK air strikes it begs the questions: why was the government so keen to expand the air strikes to Syria, and why the agonising over a vote that appears to have changed relatively little?
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Originally Posted by Thelma Viaduct
How is the doubling of national debt going in the right direction?
First understand the difference between debt and deficit. Then understand how the people that whinge about the debt are the same people that whinge about the Government's efforts to reduce the deficit. Finally understand how outraged you and yours would be if the Government had imposed those savings more quickly - quickly enough to reduce their inherited deficit to below zero and, thereby, start to reduce the debt.
It's very simple if you take the trouble to understand it.
Now, why don't we use this forum to discuss Military Aviation?
Are UK bombs making a difference in Syria? The ones that take out Stone Age terrorist are and will. Tasking and targeting are the keys. Parliament voting "yes" doesn't mean the RAF have to suddenly do anything.
When there are valid, confirmed targets there, they will hit them. If they hit anything else, the BBC would be all over that too. And there will be another IHAT.
Ops will be conducted cautiously and carefully against confirmed targets.
When there are valid, confirmed targets there, they will hit them. If they hit anything else, the BBC would be all over that too. And there will be another IHAT.
Ops will be conducted cautiously and carefully against confirmed targets.
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We are conducting ops at a pace appropriate to targeting. Your media article, whilst well constructed and considered, does not fully reflect the operational picture.
SAS sniper 'pulverises' trio of ISIS butchers from over 1km away and through a brick wall
The incredible incident happened during the battle for Ramadi in Iraq last week and the staff sergeant was part of a small team of British special forces who have been advising the Iraqi army.
Rocket attacks were also turned down amid fears the building could collapse and kill innocent civilians.
The SAS sniper then offered his services - which were gratefully accepted by the Iraqis.
He positioned himself in a building around one kilometre away and then fired some 30 armour-piercing rounds into the building - killing the trio of butchers and demolishing the wall.
If that's advising I'd hate to see the results of him joining in
The incredible incident happened during the battle for Ramadi in Iraq last week and the staff sergeant was part of a small team of British special forces who have been advising the Iraqi army.
Rocket attacks were also turned down amid fears the building could collapse and kill innocent civilians.
The SAS sniper then offered his services - which were gratefully accepted by the Iraqis.
He positioned himself in a building around one kilometre away and then fired some 30 armour-piercing rounds into the building - killing the trio of butchers and demolishing the wall.
If that's advising I'd hate to see the results of him joining in
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
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The parliamentary debate would seem to have been with the intention of permitting actions in Syria should the need arise. The raids hours after that vote was no doubt to demonstrate capability and intent.
The subsequent inaction could have several reasons other than a lack of suitable targets.
One might be to leave the Syrian TOO to the Russians. Another might be to concentrate in Iraq to try and clear that rats nest first. Either shows concentration and maintenance of an aim rather than a fragmentary effort in the whole TOO.
The subsequent inaction could have several reasons other than a lack of suitable targets.
One might be to leave the Syrian TOO to the Russians. Another might be to concentrate in Iraq to try and clear that rats nest first. Either shows concentration and maintenance of an aim rather than a fragmentary effort in the whole TOO.
Originally Posted by NutLoose
SAS sniper 'pulverises' trio of ISIS butchers from over 1km away and through a brick wall
The incredible incident happened during the battle for Ramadi in Iraq last week and the staff sergeant was part of a small team of British special forces who have been advising the Iraqi army.
Rocket attacks were also turned down amid fears the building could collapse and kill innocent civilians.
The SAS sniper then offered his services - which were gratefully accepted by the Iraqis. He positioned himself in a building around one kilometre away and then fired some 30 armour-piercing rounds into the building - killing the trio of butchers and demolishing the wall.
If that's advising I'd hate to see the results of him joining in
The incredible incident happened during the battle for Ramadi in Iraq last week and the staff sergeant was part of a small team of British special forces who have been advising the Iraqi army.
Rocket attacks were also turned down amid fears the building could collapse and kill innocent civilians.
The SAS sniper then offered his services - which were gratefully accepted by the Iraqis. He positioned himself in a building around one kilometre away and then fired some 30 armour-piercing rounds into the building - killing the trio of butchers and demolishing the wall.
If that's advising I'd hate to see the results of him joining in
The RAF has used Brimstone missiles on Islamic State targets in Syria for the first time, Downing Street has confirmed.
The radar-guided weapons, designed to hit smaller, precise targets, were launched during four missions against terror targets on Sunday.
The missiles are rocket propelled and detonate a tandem charge on impact to ensure penetration of armour.
RAF Fires Brimstone Missiles At Islamic State
The radar-guided weapons, designed to hit smaller, precise targets, were launched during four missions against terror targets on Sunday.
The missiles are rocket propelled and detonate a tandem charge on impact to ensure penetration of armour.
RAF Fires Brimstone Missiles At Islamic State
The RAF seems to have decided that, if no one else will bang their drum for them, they'll do it themselves. This is Air Marshal Greg Bagwell, Deputy Cdr Ops, "reflecting" on
https://modmedia.blog.gov.uk/2016/01...against-daesh/
Some stirring stuff, which ends with
airsound
the RAF contribution to the UK's fight against the terrorist group Daesh
Some stirring stuff, which ends with
we should be very proud of our contribution, which is making a real difference despite what you hear from those who choose to value quantity over quality. Airpower is our major advantage in this conflict and the RAF is a very significant part of its successful delivery.
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I got a reply from my MP.
About me asking her not to vote for bombing. But she voted for it anyway. Quite a long letter, I appreciate it, really. And somehow think better of her for writing it.
Easier to start the bombing than end it. At what point does the operation end? No-one will ever say.
Easier to start the bombing than end it. At what point does the operation end? No-one will ever say.
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LT, it is very difficult to measure the effect of a prophylactic. Even shooting a man carrying a rifle does not prove you stopped him shooting someone. Indeed that is one reason for restrictive ROE
