RAF Warrant Officer
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To address the "sergeant major or Sir" question:
If a soldier, SSgt or below is in conversation with a WO or higher, he will address the WO as Sir, exactly like a commissioned officer. Never "Sergeant Major".
However, if said junior guy is approaching a group of say a sergeant major and two captains, and needs to speak to the SSM, he will attract his attention by starting his sentence with "Sergeant Major, Sir, could I speak to you about xyz". Similarly for the Captains. "Captain A, Sir, could I have a word about xyz". Obviously if the junior guy bumbled up to the group and said "Sir,..." they wouldn't know who he was addressing.
Just to throw fuel on the fire for discussion, the junior guy would salute as he got to the group, the senior captain would return the salute (or both of them!), and then the guy would address the SSM.
If a soldier, SSgt or below is in conversation with a WO or higher, he will address the WO as Sir, exactly like a commissioned officer. Never "Sergeant Major".
However, if said junior guy is approaching a group of say a sergeant major and two captains, and needs to speak to the SSM, he will attract his attention by starting his sentence with "Sergeant Major, Sir, could I speak to you about xyz". Similarly for the Captains. "Captain A, Sir, could I have a word about xyz". Obviously if the junior guy bumbled up to the group and said "Sir,..." they wouldn't know who he was addressing.
Just to throw fuel on the fire for discussion, the junior guy would salute as he got to the group, the senior captain would return the salute (or both of them!), and then the guy would address the SSM.
Gentleman Aviator
What is a Lord Lieutenants Commission and how does that differ if at all from the Queens Commission (apart from it be conferred by a Lord Lieutenant)?
The main difference was that rights of redress were limited to one-star level, while a holder of the Queen's Commission has rights of appeal to the Service Boards and - ultimately - to HM herself.
Historically, I think Lord Lieutenants' Commissions were also issued to Home Guard officers; best we ask Capt Mainwaring!
How difficult do people want to make it?
I have no idea of the RAF rules albeit, my 6 months passing through CFS at RAF Shawbury rules were much the same - but the army rules are quite simple.
You first have to remember there is a difference between an appointment and a rank. On being selected for promotion to WO2 all are referred to as sir by all subordinates. If you are promoted as a WO2 into an appointment or just moved into one i.e. Company/Battery/Squadron Sergeant major (there are a great deal more appointments) then a person of higher rank, WO1's or commissioned will refer to you as Sergeant Major. The Regimental Sergeant Major (RSM) a WO1 is referred to as 'Regimental Sergeant Major' by the Commanding Officer and Sir to everybody else subordinate. Majors and Captains just nod and try to stay out of his way and subalterns just hide. They generally, if forced to be in his presence, refer to him as 'yes RSM', I've seldom heard one refer to him as No RSM!
Before we go further lets try to clear up the 'Warrant' bit. Thats is issued by the Secretary of State for Defence, so nothing to do with royalty. The royal bit only comes to those commissioned from the ranks (LE) when their Royal Commission is exactly the same as (DE) Officers.
The 'Mr bit' comes into WO1/2, when not in an appointment and generally will be referred to as Mr by all without exception, when referencing a subordinate would say 'No Sir, Mr Smith told me to go and boil my head'! But to his person he is still referred to as Sir by all subordinates. A WO1/2 not in an appointment would also answer the telephone as Mr *****. A Squadron Sergeant Major would answer as 'Sargent Major ******'.
There have always been abnormalities or as we call them 'tradition' but generally it works a treat. You can easily be promoted through Warrant Officer rank without ever holding an appointment and that very occasionally might cause a few ruffles where you sit on the top table but generally big boys accept it and enjoy the fact you may well be senior in rank and seniority but not by appointment.
Clear as mud eh.
I have no idea of the RAF rules albeit, my 6 months passing through CFS at RAF Shawbury rules were much the same - but the army rules are quite simple.
You first have to remember there is a difference between an appointment and a rank. On being selected for promotion to WO2 all are referred to as sir by all subordinates. If you are promoted as a WO2 into an appointment or just moved into one i.e. Company/Battery/Squadron Sergeant major (there are a great deal more appointments) then a person of higher rank, WO1's or commissioned will refer to you as Sergeant Major. The Regimental Sergeant Major (RSM) a WO1 is referred to as 'Regimental Sergeant Major' by the Commanding Officer and Sir to everybody else subordinate. Majors and Captains just nod and try to stay out of his way and subalterns just hide. They generally, if forced to be in his presence, refer to him as 'yes RSM', I've seldom heard one refer to him as No RSM!
Before we go further lets try to clear up the 'Warrant' bit. Thats is issued by the Secretary of State for Defence, so nothing to do with royalty. The royal bit only comes to those commissioned from the ranks (LE) when their Royal Commission is exactly the same as (DE) Officers.
The 'Mr bit' comes into WO1/2, when not in an appointment and generally will be referred to as Mr by all without exception, when referencing a subordinate would say 'No Sir, Mr Smith told me to go and boil my head'! But to his person he is still referred to as Sir by all subordinates. A WO1/2 not in an appointment would also answer the telephone as Mr *****. A Squadron Sergeant Major would answer as 'Sargent Major ******'.
There have always been abnormalities or as we call them 'tradition' but generally it works a treat. You can easily be promoted through Warrant Officer rank without ever holding an appointment and that very occasionally might cause a few ruffles where you sit on the top table but generally big boys accept it and enjoy the fact you may well be senior in rank and seniority but not by appointment.
Clear as mud eh.
Last edited by MOSTAFA; 19th Nov 2015 at 08:47.
Army Mover and Roadstar280 - thanks for the replies on the correct form of address by ORs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Y3TU6T0n34
Obviously Gunner "lah-di-dah" Graham was getting it wrong all the time!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Y3TU6T0n34
Obviously Gunner "lah-di-dah" Graham was getting it wrong all the time!
MOSTAFA:-
You are joking, I hope? How I ever got through my promotion exam to Flt Lt when part of the syllabus was about the British Army I shall never understand. It still remains a mystery wrapped in an enigma and will be ever thus...
I hope that helps.
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Fascinating - answering all the questions we didn't think to ask.
We did things a just a little differently down here in Oz.
I was at a gathering in the Sergeants Mess one evening..
WO2 Brown was standing at the bar.
Rather than the invitation going "There's a group of us (three-stripers) at the far table, would you care to join us, sir?"
It went "Hey Bob!. Get your arse over here".
.
We did things a just a little differently down here in Oz.
I was at a gathering in the Sergeants Mess one evening..
WO2 Brown was standing at the bar.
Rather than the invitation going "There's a group of us (three-stripers) at the far table, would you care to join us, sir?"
It went "Hey Bob!. Get your arse over here".
.
Last edited by Stanwell; 19th Nov 2015 at 09:28.
So presumably 'Command Sergeant Major' is, like Army Sergeant Major, an appointment for WO1s?
It does sound like another Americanised rank we have adopted (To be filed along side 'Executive Officer' in the RAF and RN for second in command)
It does sound like another Americanised rank we have adopted (To be filed along side 'Executive Officer' in the RAF and RN for second in command)
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My Dad ended his "twenty-two years of undetected crime" as a "Regimental Quartermaster Sergeant". That would have been a Warrant Rank in 1920, according to Wiki.
There are all sorts of commissions. As an Officer of Customs and Excise in my declining years, I held a Commission from the Commissioners of Customs and Excise (who else ?), who resided in state near the Tower of London in King's Beam House. Never had to wave it in the thirteen years in which I laboured in the VAT vineyard to earn an honest crust to supplement my miserly RAF Pension.
But there was a valuable perk: I was excused from Jury service
as I had Some of the Powers of a Constable. This came in handy two or three times (the excuse, that is, I never had to do more than issue the dread words of a Caution).
D.
There are all sorts of commissions. As an Officer of Customs and Excise in my declining years, I held a Commission from the Commissioners of Customs and Excise (who else ?), who resided in state near the Tower of London in King's Beam House. Never had to wave it in the thirteen years in which I laboured in the VAT vineyard to earn an honest crust to supplement my miserly RAF Pension.
But there was a valuable perk: I was excused from Jury service
as I had Some of the Powers of a Constable. This came in handy two or three times (the excuse, that is, I never had to do more than issue the dread words of a Caution).D.
Dave
Nope! to the best of my knowledge we don't have or ever had any Command Sergeant Majors. I think its a US term for RSM equivalent.
We have a Company Sergeant Majors and the equivalent. (WO2) 1 per Company.
We have Regimental Quartermaster Sergeants (WO2) Usually 2 per Regt/Bn who are senior to the Company Sergeant Majors (By appointment RQMS).
We have a Regimental Sergeant Major (WO1) RSM 1 per Regt/Bn Senior by appointment to all WO1's within the Regt/Bn. Artificer Sergeant Major (ASM WO1) Band Sergeant Major (BSM WO1) not to be confused with a Battery Sergeant Major (BSM WO2).
We have some Garrison Sergeant Majors (GSM WO1) usually ex RSMs (WO1 not commissioning) by appointment senior to RSMs in their Garrisons but not in their own Regt messes.
We have an Academy Sergeant Major (By appointment Academy Sergeant Major RMAS Sandhurst) (WO1) whom by appointment is the senior Regimental Sergeant Major).
We used to have other appointments (WO1) that were by appointment senior but I think they have now largely gone (Conductor) Royal Army Ordnance Corps. But who knows!
Told you it was simple.
Nope! to the best of my knowledge we don't have or ever had any Command Sergeant Majors. I think its a US term for RSM equivalent.
We have a Company Sergeant Majors and the equivalent. (WO2) 1 per Company.
We have Regimental Quartermaster Sergeants (WO2) Usually 2 per Regt/Bn who are senior to the Company Sergeant Majors (By appointment RQMS).
We have a Regimental Sergeant Major (WO1) RSM 1 per Regt/Bn Senior by appointment to all WO1's within the Regt/Bn. Artificer Sergeant Major (ASM WO1) Band Sergeant Major (BSM WO1) not to be confused with a Battery Sergeant Major (BSM WO2).
We have some Garrison Sergeant Majors (GSM WO1) usually ex RSMs (WO1 not commissioning) by appointment senior to RSMs in their Garrisons but not in their own Regt messes.
We have an Academy Sergeant Major (By appointment Academy Sergeant Major RMAS Sandhurst) (WO1) whom by appointment is the senior Regimental Sergeant Major).
We used to have other appointments (WO1) that were by appointment senior but I think they have now largely gone (Conductor) Royal Army Ordnance Corps. But who knows!
Told you it was simple.
Last edited by MOSTAFA; 19th Nov 2015 at 10:37.
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Army Mover and Roadstar280 - thanks for the replies on the correct form of address by ORs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Y3TU6T0n34
Obviously Gunner "lah-di-dah" Graham was getting it wrong all the time!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Y3TU6T0n34
Obviously Gunner "lah-di-dah" Graham was getting it wrong all the time!
IIRC the other characters also sometimes called him "Sergeant Major", but not like Graham.
Never mind the tattoos, and the whopping great badge which stands out rather surprisingly against the camouflaged background on the Army Sergeant Major's uniform, particularly compared with everyone else's, I am rather taken with the mention that:
"At the end of his three-year tenure, he will be moving on to the year-long Intermediate Command and Staff Course at Shrivenham, for which he will take up his substantive promotion to Major."
Can the Warrant Officer of the Naval Service and the Chief of the Air Staff's Warrant Officer look forward to shipping two and a half stripes similarly, not to mention the Royal Marines Corps Regimental Sergeant Major?
Jack
"At the end of his three-year tenure, he will be moving on to the year-long Intermediate Command and Staff Course at Shrivenham, for which he will take up his substantive promotion to Major."
Can the Warrant Officer of the Naval Service and the Chief of the Air Staff's Warrant Officer look forward to shipping two and a half stripes similarly, not to mention the Royal Marines Corps Regimental Sergeant Major?
Jack
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I used to take great delight in pointing out to other Warrant Officers in the Mess that as a Master Aircrew and placed higher in the Royal Air Force List, I was obviously senior to them. I and my fellow aircrew had many amusing times with that one, especially when it involved a ground trade CMC!
PingDit
Don't get me started on the necessary `Ex-Cpls only bar` in Kipper fleet Sgts Messes.
I recall as a WO of some 10 years seniority (at an RAF station with tri service people), I was surprised to find that on the seating plan for a dining in night, I had been placed downwind of a young WO from the Adj Generals Corps. When I asked the mess manager why this was so, the answer was "He was appointed to WO1 status (of a lodger unit) recently" and had informed the mess that as he was now the senior WO on base he should be next to the CMC.
The `dispute` was resolved simply. It was pointed out to him that the flag at the top of the STATION flagpole was, of course, the RAF Ensign. and the Mess was the RAF.XXX ..mess. The `postman` was put back in his box only to be let out a few month later when he was commissioned.
I just love traditions....
Don't get me started on the necessary `Ex-Cpls only bar` in Kipper fleet Sgts Messes.
I recall as a WO of some 10 years seniority (at an RAF station with tri service people), I was surprised to find that on the seating plan for a dining in night, I had been placed downwind of a young WO from the Adj Generals Corps. When I asked the mess manager why this was so, the answer was "He was appointed to WO1 status (of a lodger unit) recently" and had informed the mess that as he was now the senior WO on base he should be next to the CMC.
The `dispute` was resolved simply. It was pointed out to him that the flag at the top of the STATION flagpole was, of course, the RAF Ensign. and the Mess was the RAF.XXX ..mess. The `postman` was put back in his box only to be let out a few month later when he was commissioned.
I just love traditions....
When I was living in in AFCENT, we (RAF) lived on the top floor, the Army on the ground floor. They had regular morning inspections and at one time they had a Regimental Corporal Major (can't for the life of me remember his name).
Always remember his first day when he burst into our room to find all and sundry lying around. He was just taking a deep breath when the outgoing RSM said quietly "We don't bother these guys" whereon they left.
Just remembered his name; RCM Godfrey-Cass.
Always remember his first day when he burst into our room to find all and sundry lying around. He was just taking a deep breath when the outgoing RSM said quietly "We don't bother these guys" whereon they left.
Just remembered his name; RCM Godfrey-Cass.
oldmansquipper.
Sounds like Brampton, only replace the AGC with Int Corps. The Int Corps WO1 in JARIC tried the same tricks, "marshalling" his SNCOs at mess meetings to try and push 'the Army way" as the way to run the mess. The matter was resolved in much the same way as you describe in your post.
Sounds like Brampton, only replace the AGC with Int Corps. The Int Corps WO1 in JARIC tried the same tricks, "marshalling" his SNCOs at mess meetings to try and push 'the Army way" as the way to run the mess. The matter was resolved in much the same way as you describe in your post.
Just as long as no-one mentions saluting USA WO's. I just did, but I think I've got away with it...
He's going to be awfully surprised when the course finishes five months earlier than he was expecting...