Taceval, Maxival and Minival
Back in the 60's. Turned up at Binbrook on a pre-arranged visit to find a very quiet camp and not much joy around! On arriving at our destination section we asked "why 'The Atmosphere'?" Overnight the OO had been presented with a signal in the early hours and, having misread it, called out the station! Regrettably, because there had been no inkling of a forthcoming exercise, only a handful of airframes were found to be 'S'. The hapless OO practised that art for a long time afterwards.
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Not sure why, but we used to hide in our Army office at Gutersloh during Station exercises, tacevals etc. We'd get all dressed up for the occasion, rush up to Bielefeld to get our weapons, but that was about it.
On one such day the Staish was doing a tour of the terminal (I think they were practising evacuating dependants), when he walked in our office. "Hello", he said, "who do you belong to?". I explained that we were based in the terminal, but had no active role in the exercise. He found it all very interesting and the next morning our own CO phoned up and told us he had "donated" us to the RAF during Station exercises etc and from now on, subject to real work commitments, would make ourselves available, as required by the Station Commander.
Much more fun than hiding in the office.
On one such day the Staish was doing a tour of the terminal (I think they were practising evacuating dependants), when he walked in our office. "Hello", he said, "who do you belong to?". I explained that we were based in the terminal, but had no active role in the exercise. He found it all very interesting and the next morning our own CO phoned up and told us he had "donated" us to the RAF during Station exercises etc and from now on, subject to real work commitments, would make ourselves available, as required by the Station Commander.
Much more fun than hiding in the office.
Just a thought: given a substantial amount of whingeing above about TACEVAL, MAXEVAL, MINEVAL amongst the more favourable reminiscences, just how were we supposed to prepare for war?
Short of the use of live rounds and a little light radiation, they seemed to me to have a serious purpose and a useful outcome.
Was there a viable alternative?
"Our job is to prepare for war in peace" I think it said at the Brueggen gate.
My recollection is that we won, did we not?
Short of the use of live rounds and a little light radiation, they seemed to me to have a serious purpose and a useful outcome.
Was there a viable alternative?
"Our job is to prepare for war in peace" I think it said at the Brueggen gate.
My recollection is that we won, did we not?
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No argument from here, langleybaston, and I suspect those in RAFG tended to be slightly more focussed!
But certainly, IME, there was a wide swathe of apathy and, indeed, resentment towards the entire process ...
March in the Accused ... the horn had gone about 45-60 minutes previously, and having ensured my guys were up to speed I went walkabout. Strolling down the road from the Sgts Mess came a chf tech in blue uniform! When I asked him what he was doing, and where he was going, he said "nn Squadron". When asked why it had taken him so long to get going, he nonchantly replied "Had a shower and a shave first". I invited him quite forefully to double all the way to his workplace, which probably negated the value of his leisurely shower.
With attitudes like that, it was always going to be an uphill struggle.
But certainly, IME, there was a wide swathe of apathy and, indeed, resentment towards the entire process ...
March in the Accused ... the horn had gone about 45-60 minutes previously, and having ensured my guys were up to speed I went walkabout. Strolling down the road from the Sgts Mess came a chf tech in blue uniform! When I asked him what he was doing, and where he was going, he said "nn Squadron". When asked why it had taken him so long to get going, he nonchantly replied "Had a shower and a shave first". I invited him quite forefully to double all the way to his workplace, which probably negated the value of his leisurely shower.
With attitudes like that, it was always going to be an uphill struggle.
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LB, I think an answer should have been more realistically than we did some of the time. My comment on universal tone down and black out in UK was a case in point, pointless. Masking tape on windows? Practise bleeding when it might have been more sensible to disperse key personnel off base (at home).
Issuing weapons but never blanks and BFU except to a small number of personnel.
MPN, otoh, at Waddo at one point we had a carefully worked out bomb loading system. OC Arm Eng planned that a number of his bomb loading teams would response at H+3 or so, coming in rested as the bulk of the generation occurred. The evaluators need to measure recall rates so regardless they all had to respond by H+1.
Basically a one-size fits all approach.
However in Cyprus a Taceval was called when we were already at a high security alert. The Taceval team had kittens when the staish, Stacey, said he was not going to mix live armed guards and exercise personnel with no ammunition, so we were all issued with live rounds. Now that was realistic. Not only that, but I slept in my own bed as well
Issuing weapons but never blanks and BFU except to a small number of personnel.
MPN, otoh, at Waddo at one point we had a carefully worked out bomb loading system. OC Arm Eng planned that a number of his bomb loading teams would response at H+3 or so, coming in rested as the bulk of the generation occurred. The evaluators need to measure recall rates so regardless they all had to respond by H+1.
Basically a one-size fits all approach.
However in Cyprus a Taceval was called when we were already at a high security alert. The Taceval team had kittens when the staish, Stacey, said he was not going to mix live armed guards and exercise personnel with no ammunition, so we were all issued with live rounds. Now that was realistic. Not only that, but I slept in my own bed as well
Thank you for replies.
Just had a question pop to the forefront of the several brain-cells remaining:
Were UK TACEVALS run and assessed by NATO teams?
Although I have experienced a fair number on UK bases, they seemed a bit half-arsed compared with those in AFCENT and AFNORTH ......... for these latter I was variously poacher and gamekeeper.
Just had a question pop to the forefront of the several brain-cells remaining:
Were UK TACEVALS run and assessed by NATO teams?
Although I have experienced a fair number on UK bases, they seemed a bit half-arsed compared with those in AFCENT and AFNORTH ......... for these latter I was variously poacher and gamekeeper.
NATO TACEVALs Conducted in the UK
langleybaston,
TACEVALs conducted on RAF bases in the UK were under the auspices of the relevant NATO HQ: HQ UK AIR then HQ AIRNORTHWEST (both physically located at RAF High Wycombe) then CC Air Ramstein.
In HQ UK AIR and HQ AIRNORTHWEST era, there were only about 10-12 full-time NATO members with the Team Chief being a RCAF lt col and the Logistics Area Chief being an RAF wg cdr.
In the CC Air era, the Team Chief was a Belgian Air Component lt col and the Logistics Area Chief was a Belgian Air Component lt col with a full-time RAF WO assistant. The was also a RAF wg cdr alternate Team Chief (for any nation other than the UK) and, above them, a RCAF col in charge of the TACEVAL Division.
On all teams, one of the permanent NATO staff members was appointed as the Project Officer for each evaluation and he co-ordinated the provision of augmentee evaluators from all member nations through each TACEVAL National Representative (NATREP) office - typically 120 rising to 200 (including about 1/3 under training and OPFOR) in the multi-sector Deployed Operating Base era (such as the German Air Force events set up at Neubrandenburg with everything moved in by road / rail).
TACEVALs conducted on RAF bases in the UK were under the auspices of the relevant NATO HQ: HQ UK AIR then HQ AIRNORTHWEST (both physically located at RAF High Wycombe) then CC Air Ramstein.
In HQ UK AIR and HQ AIRNORTHWEST era, there were only about 10-12 full-time NATO members with the Team Chief being a RCAF lt col and the Logistics Area Chief being an RAF wg cdr.
In the CC Air era, the Team Chief was a Belgian Air Component lt col and the Logistics Area Chief was a Belgian Air Component lt col with a full-time RAF WO assistant. The was also a RAF wg cdr alternate Team Chief (for any nation other than the UK) and, above them, a RCAF col in charge of the TACEVAL Division.
On all teams, one of the permanent NATO staff members was appointed as the Project Officer for each evaluation and he co-ordinated the provision of augmentee evaluators from all member nations through each TACEVAL National Representative (NATREP) office - typically 120 rising to 200 (including about 1/3 under training and OPFOR) in the multi-sector Deployed Operating Base era (such as the German Air Force events set up at Neubrandenburg with everything moved in by road / rail).
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3p, like he said, half . . . 
The biggest difference between NATO and National for the NATO ones I did was UK could start at O'dark hundred and ran non-stop 24/24
In the NATO ones the team didn't start to assembly until normal start work and maybe even Tuesday. They ran 12 on 12 off on the basis that their manning would be doubled by UK reinforcements. Not sure that this would have been strictly true.
Also would quiz troops on the ground. We found RAF Police on barrier duties for 12 he straight.
The biggest difference between NATO and National for the NATO ones I did was UK could start at O'dark hundred and ran non-stop 24/24
In the NATO ones the team didn't start to assembly until normal start work and maybe even Tuesday. They ran 12 on 12 off on the basis that their manning would be doubled by UK reinforcements. Not sure that this would have been strictly true.
Also would quiz troops on the ground. We found RAF Police on barrier duties for 12 he straight.
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator
MPN, otoh, at Waddo at one point we had a carefully worked out bomb loading system. OC Arm Eng planned that a number of his bomb loading teams would response at H+3 or so, coming in rested as the bulk of the generation occurred. The evaluators need to measure recall rates so regardless they all had to respond by H+1.
Were you there when they were loading shapes in dense fog during a Part 1? The convoys can't be stopped, so ATC Local was actually doing live controlling of the movements in ZERO visibility!
"c/s 1, have you passed the PAR yet?" "What's that?" "Big green box on a turntable on your right" "Yes" "C/s 2, clear to move to <location>"
When the Staish called me in Local on my 'private field telephone' to Ops, he asked why the loading was going so slow, and by implication blaming ATC. I politely invited him to step out of the Ops Bunker and look at the 5 yard visibility. He said no more on the subject ... a very good Staish was "Big John' 
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In the early 70s I was on Ops Sqn at "Dusseldorf Weeze" as Ryanair calls it. There were random tests of reaction to messages throughout the day. O.C. Wraf deemed that the night shift being a non sleeping phase, her gels could do nights. We nevertheless dossed down for a few hours on safari beds in our own sections. One very early morn the comms kit came to life with lights and bells. "Keys to the bridge" I yelled and leapt out of the maggot. As the dual control was activated I noticed that the rest of the team was clad in a Wraf cardie and IIRC shell pink bra and panties. At this point the door opened and in came the 2ATAF Taceval team and the Staish. Well what could I say. The team leader Wg Cdr L* T***** said "We are satisfied with the response time and will retire till your staff have recovered their composure. Took some living down.
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Dougie, reminds me, the delightful ops assistant (clerks in those days) used to respond to Micks in the most delightful collection of garments.
One call out I stupidly asked why. They said that that way the knew they would be sent back to change, they could then wash, shower etc and return.
Sadly, after my curiosity the word went round and they afterwards always came in blues. I had meant no rebuke, honest.
One call out I stupidly asked why. They said that that way the knew they would be sent back to change, they could then wash, shower etc and return.
Sadly, after my curiosity the word went round and they afterwards always came in blues. I had meant no rebuke, honest.
2100-ish Sunday evening at Worthy Down where, at the time I was the sole light blue -siren goes, I crash into DPM and pitch into my RP - I am the ONLY person in anything like uniform - so the colonel (also in plain clothes) - puts me in charge. Could hardly stop grinning - turned out to be a harmless (but smelly) sports bag left by a car by someone coming back off weekend.
Whilst trotting around a station on Distaff duties, I noted how many scrappy bits of A4 with 'Sandbags' written on them were adorning all the windows. Translating the areas to be covered into numbers of bags required was revealing!
I happened on a 'Field Service Pocket Book 1914' where there is listed a table of time/men/tools for various tasks. It transpired that the station would still be filling the bags even now ... always assuming we could have got hold of the Nation's supply of sand!!
I happened on a 'Field Service Pocket Book 1914' where there is listed a table of time/men/tools for various tasks. It transpired that the station would still be filling the bags even now ... always assuming we could have got hold of the Nation's supply of sand!!
When an officer in RCT TA I had an "Officers Pocket book" in which you could find, amongst other things, the tables giving the fodder requirements of various numbers of mules, this in 1979/80
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FZ, quite.
On the basis that attacks in modern warfare would be directed more accurately on military targets it would have been more sensible to reduce on-base manning to that required for operations and to disperse off-duty personnel and billet livers-in in local hotels.
Unless of course they thought people might have been inclined to desert.
On the basis that attacks in modern warfare would be directed more accurately on military targets it would have been more sensible to reduce on-base manning to that required for operations and to disperse off-duty personnel and billet livers-in in local hotels.
Unless of course they thought people might have been inclined to desert.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
MINEVAL at Neatishead in 70s.
Distaff stops Cpl in corridor and pins piece of paper saying "exercise fire" on a door. "What are you going to do about that?, he asks Cpl.
Cpl whips out notebook and pen, scribbles "Exercise water" on it and pins on top of first piece of paper and walks away.
--------------------------
Sitting in crew room in R30 (above ground box from which we "defended" the UK for over 20 years whilst the bunker awaited refurbishment. Thunder flash goes off outside window and voice shouts "bomb". 30 seconds later DISTAFF walk through door and, incandescent, demand to know why we haven't responded or called the GDCC.
Turning page of paper laconic Flt Lt replies, "Its a plywood wall, we're all f**king dead".
Unfortunately the brought us back to life....
...............................
On a more serious note, I was a NATO observer at a CENTO exercise in Turkey at Diyarbakir in 1977. Several items worthy of mention.
One of the sites liable to inspection was the remote radar head for the CRC up in the mountains. When asked for a team to visit the Turks explained it would take 24 hours to put together a convoy with tanks and guards to get there safely in case of a PKK attack. When asked when the last time this had occurred they replied 2 weeks previously. It was decided that, in the circumstances, their security was probably up to scratch and a visit was unnecessary.
We were informed that, if we noticed any breaches of regulations we were to note them and pass them to the team lead, not to mention them to the Turks. It was explained that, the year previously, a DISTAFF member had found a guard asleep and had to shake him awake. He mentioned it in passing to the Turkish guard commander - who had the soldier in question put in front of a firing squad and shot for dereliction of duty in the face of the enemy - and not with blanks.
Distaff stops Cpl in corridor and pins piece of paper saying "exercise fire" on a door. "What are you going to do about that?, he asks Cpl.
Cpl whips out notebook and pen, scribbles "Exercise water" on it and pins on top of first piece of paper and walks away.
--------------------------
Sitting in crew room in R30 (above ground box from which we "defended" the UK for over 20 years whilst the bunker awaited refurbishment. Thunder flash goes off outside window and voice shouts "bomb". 30 seconds later DISTAFF walk through door and, incandescent, demand to know why we haven't responded or called the GDCC.
Turning page of paper laconic Flt Lt replies, "Its a plywood wall, we're all f**king dead".
Unfortunately the brought us back to life....
...............................
On a more serious note, I was a NATO observer at a CENTO exercise in Turkey at Diyarbakir in 1977. Several items worthy of mention.
One of the sites liable to inspection was the remote radar head for the CRC up in the mountains. When asked for a team to visit the Turks explained it would take 24 hours to put together a convoy with tanks and guards to get there safely in case of a PKK attack. When asked when the last time this had occurred they replied 2 weeks previously. It was decided that, in the circumstances, their security was probably up to scratch and a visit was unnecessary.
We were informed that, if we noticed any breaches of regulations we were to note them and pass them to the team lead, not to mention them to the Turks. It was explained that, the year previously, a DISTAFF member had found a guard asleep and had to shake him awake. He mentioned it in passing to the Turkish guard commander - who had the soldier in question put in front of a firing squad and shot for dereliction of duty in the face of the enemy - and not with blanks.
Last edited by ORAC; 23rd Oct 2015 at 10:05.
Again, Neatishead, 1984, Aunty Joan is Stn Cdr. I have arrived as a pretend sqn ldr (posting in an promotion a couple of months in the future, but she did a deal with my boss at the Towers, Bobby Robson.) So there I am, ground defence controller on a station I have been at for about 15 minutes, my predecessor has pushed off I know not where, and I know no one and nothing, and incomes an inject of "Fire at the Tx site"! Having ascertained Tx site is 5 mile north and we have one fire engine on the unit and there is a civilian fire engine not far from the Tx site - I cpx civil fire crew to attend. About 5 minutes later this gp capt I have never met storms into the GDOC. "Squadron leader, if there is a fire on my station it has adjectival flames coming from it. Send the real fire engine!" "yes, Ma'am". I have met Aunty Joan.
1800hrs that nigh, shift change. I sit there listening to all this incomprehensible fighter controller stuff; the Stn Cdr announces me to give the ground defence brief. "Station Commander, Ladies and Gentlemen, so far I have not understood a thing. I hope I do better." Roars of laughter led by Stn Cdr. Start of a wonderful 18 months
1800hrs that nigh, shift change. I sit there listening to all this incomprehensible fighter controller stuff; the Stn Cdr announces me to give the ground defence brief. "Station Commander, Ladies and Gentlemen, so far I have not understood a thing. I hope I do better." Roars of laughter led by Stn Cdr. Start of a wonderful 18 months
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The Turks have (had?) a different approach to discipline. Rumour control at Geilenkirchen at the end of the 1980s told of a guard at the NATO AWACS forward operating base at Konya who was also shot for sleeping on duty - it was thought that a Turkish officer had the authority to shoot up to two conscripts per year. In a separate incident, one of the NATO aircrew was rifle butted - quite seriously - by a guard when returning to Konya base for being too slow to show an ID card.
Each of the different nations at NATO Air Base Geilenkirchen had its own National Support Unit, responsible for discipline of its own nationals. Every Friday, the Col in charge of the Turkish contingent would hold a parade and if necessary would issue corporal punishment with his leather belt. It sort of puts the bullying instructor thread into context....
Each of the different nations at NATO Air Base Geilenkirchen had its own National Support Unit, responsible for discipline of its own nationals. Every Friday, the Col in charge of the Turkish contingent would hold a parade and if necessary would issue corporal punishment with his leather belt. It sort of puts the bullying instructor thread into context....
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We entered the nuclear fallout phase but didn't report the fallout as the the first bomb was directly overhead. We were told not to be silly and get on with it.
I typed up the full tale just now and then found I was repeating it exactly as posted 6 years ago:
http://www.pprune.org/military-aviat...issions-3.html