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Hawker Hunter Crash at Shoreham Airshow

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Hawker Hunter Crash at Shoreham Airshow

Old 28th Aug 2015, 11:10
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They probably found the same page on T&L by Googling "372", PN. Or maybe from AtomKraft's post.
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Old 28th Aug 2015, 11:45
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Interesting little dit in the Grauniard;

For drivers, the A27 is far more dangerous than any air show | Science | The Guardian
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Old 28th Aug 2015, 12:01
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It is an interesting article, Fluff, and the stats are quite sobering. I doubt the stated position will carry much weight in preserving the status quo for air shows, though. Citing something as a greater risk than an air show doesn't make the air show any less risky.

I does, however, put the whole thing in perspective. I wonder how many folks are aware of the accumulated risk they unwittingly or deliberately expose themselves to each day.
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Old 28th Aug 2015, 12:26
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Therein lies the issue. People don't care about the risk they put themselves in on a day to day basis, until it's too late....

Last edited by Fluffy Bunny; 28th Aug 2015 at 12:26. Reason: Spooling mistook
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Old 28th Aug 2015, 13:00
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Good article? No, not really, another journalistically lazy article, the likes of which attract so much criticism on here.

The author is critical of people not understanding the concept of risk which he clearly has no idea about himself. I refer people back to Satellite Driver's descriptions earlier in this thread. The MoD uses a similar scheme referring to 1st, 2nd and 3rd parties. There are many things that a driver can do to help reduce risk, choice of vehicle, route, time of day, driving style etc and there are some that are beyond their control, ie another vehicle entering their lane. But drivers wittingly make certain decisions, ie to drive, thus they are 1st parties. As passers by to an airshow, they have no interest, possibly no knowledge even of what is going on overhead and therefore no conscious acceptance of the risks.

I have been in a serious road accident in which others died. I survived because of a conscious decision to drive a very safe (crashworthy) car. (Not my fault by the way).
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Old 28th Aug 2015, 13:11
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I believe 10 Red Arrow pilots have been killed in the teams 50 year history, with about the same number of non fatal crashes, yet they were allowed to continue.

Now they are being neutered by the CAA following an unrelated accident, to a plane that had been flying 10 years before they were even formed.

Isn't the Dartmouth REGATTA over water anyway?



If they have gone from vintage jets to all jets in a few days, how long until it's all aircraft? The ONLY way to guarantee no one will ever be killed at an airshow, is to not have airshows.

It all smacks of a bureaucratic decision to be seen to do something. with obvious parallels to local councils slapping low speed limits onto sensible drivers following one drunk driver crashing.
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Old 28th Aug 2015, 13:23
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It all smacks of a bureaucratic decision to be seen to do something. with obvious parallels to local councils slapping low speed limits onto sensible drivers following one drunk driver crashing.
Yeah, or banning all handguns just because one nut walked into a school and massacred 16 children and a teacher when no sensible person would ever do such a thing. It's political correctness gone mad I say!!

Now, back to topic....
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Old 28th Aug 2015, 13:37
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I wonder how many folks are aware of the accumulated risk they unwittingly or deliberately expose themselves to each day.
There is no known cure for the condition known as life.
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Old 28th Aug 2015, 14:06
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IP You just need to look at your picture to find the answer to why the Reds aren't doing a full show at Dartmouth. It's a confined area (river valley with fairly big hills) populated on both sides. The over water element is negated, because the water's full of boats.
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Old 28th Aug 2015, 15:25
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Originally Posted by strake
There is no known cure for the condition known as life.
There is, that's why there's so much public interest in this accident!

Last edited by Mach Two; 28th Aug 2015 at 16:17. Reason: typo, as usual.
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Old 28th Aug 2015, 15:35
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There is no known cure for the condition known as life.
Sure there is. It's called death. Whether death as a "cure" for life is an improvement or a decline probably depends on your religious proclivities.
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Old 28th Aug 2015, 19:34
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Originally Posted by Courtney Mil View Post
A couple of sources confirm 372's history:
Like many people, I have kept my powder dry for a while, but feel (rightly or wrongly), time is right to say something. I am not aircrew or even military, but a reasonably sensible human with a healthy interest with military aviation being the son of a FJ man back in the day. As it happens the Hunter was his favourite of all.

The event in Shoreham was tragic all round and the reason will likely become clear one day. Speculation and conjecture on a public forum helps nobody as once it is out there......it is out...

Sensible observations excepted.

Let us not forget that the last thing AH would have thought about that morning was where we are now.

Let the inquiry / investigation take it's natural course and stop bickering. If you won't stand in a room and say your bit - don't type it.

Edit :

Not a specific reply to you CM - just happened it was one of your posts I was reading when I thought of replying!.

TN.
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Old 28th Aug 2015, 20:52
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It has been suggested in some corners that the pilot may have blacked out during the high energy manoeuvre. Whilst this is pure speculation it does raise the question should display pilots have an upper age limit? Is it right a 51 yr old was performing a high g manoeuvre? Do display pilots undergo strict annual medicals, ECG, blood tests etc? Flying military spec, even fifty year old jets is demanding and perhaps not for the more mature pilot? You don't see many fifty year old pilots in active FJ service very often, you dont see F1 drivers of that age.
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Old 28th Aug 2015, 21:05
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It has been suggested in some corners that the pilot may have blacked out during the high energy manoeuvre. Whilst this is pure speculation it does raise the question should display pilots have an upper age limit? Is it right a 51 yr old was performing a high g manoeuvre?
1. What makes one think that it is not "right a 51 yr old was performing a high g manoeuvre?" Is there any data that even suggests 51 yr olds are less g tolerant?

2. What makes one think the maneuver involved high g at all?
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Old 28th Aug 2015, 21:37
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Tarantonight, I get your point. I admit I was confused until I got to the end of your post as, if you read back a bit, you'll find I've been banging that same drum here, probably too much.

Jayand, again something I touched on here a few pages ago. I refer to the USAF medical folks that once tortured me in their centrifuge during my time flying the F-15. To cut a long story short, their extensive research has not revealed any significant difference in resting or straining g-tolerance between twenty-somethings and fifty-somethings. Interestingly, there are some differences between gymn weight-pumpers, regular runners and folk that simply do regular exercise - and not necessarily those you might expect. But that is a different issue. Age is not a significant factor in g-tolerance.

As for medical exams, the requirements are clear and medicals are required for all pilots, civil and military. Whilst there is no difference between a pilot wanting to fly in straight lines and one that wants to do aeros, the standards are strict.

Yes, medicals include ECGs, blood tests, hearing tests, eye tests, urine tests and some other stuff.

Yes you do see a lot of pilots flying high performance aircraft well into their forties and fifties - as long as they are physically fit to do so. Some of us even managed to walk, unaided, to the aircraft.

I would be interested to hear back from you on this because I suspect you have some doubts and, perhaps, misconceptions in this area that I would be happy to address further if it would help.
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Old 28th Aug 2015, 21:52
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Jayand
It has been suggested in some corners that the pilot may have blacked out during the high energy manoeuvre.
Pure speculation.

it does raise the question should display pilots have an upper age limit?
No, in the case of AH and many others as part of their day job it requires that you under go a class one medical conducted by the UK CAA or an AME.

Is it right a 51 yr old was performing a high g manoeuvre?
No, a loop ( if it was a loop ) requires approx. 3g.

Do display pilots undergo strict annual medicals, ECG, blood tests etc?
Yes see answer above.

Flying military spec, even fifty year old jets is demanding and perhaps not for the more mature pilot?
What is flying a mil spec aircraft ? it was a retired military aircraft operated in a civil environment, with speed, altitude and in flight weather limitations, it was not in active service nor operated as if it was in active service.

By the way "g" loading in a jet is the same as "g" loading in any other aircraft.

As for limitations on mature pilots, well really

Last edited by Above The Clouds; 28th Aug 2015 at 23:05. Reason: irrelevent text
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Old 28th Aug 2015, 23:46
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Originally Posted by Jayand View Post
It has been suggested in some corners that the pilot may have blacked out during the high energy manoeuvre. Whilst this is pure speculation it does raise the question should display pilots have an upper age limit? Is it right a 51 yr old was performing a high g manoeuvre? Do display pilots undergo strict annual medicals, ECG, blood tests etc? Flying military spec, even fifty year old jets is demanding and perhaps not for the more mature pilot? You don't see many fifty year old pilots in active FJ service very often, you dont see F1 drivers of that age.
Jayand

I just celebrated my 49th birthday. Earlier on this year I tabbed the Fan Dance - 45lbs load, with a couple of additional diversions in a time which would certainly make me of no interest to the normal military community who do this - but was a league above the basic combat infantry standard (usually achieved by men in their late teens/early 20s). My point is: age is a number. Capability is something that you test with examination and achieve with appropriate training. I knew plenty of overweight, unfit military pilots in their 20s and 30s when I served and they all passed the same flying medicals as the "retired" ones who were still flying professionally.

I think we can probably apply the same logic to the aircraft. I saw a wonderful display from the "vintage" vulcan this year at RIAT, but also recall seeing horrendous footage of a "serving" vulcan falling apart in mid-air.

Very, very sad outcome - but the enquiry needs to establish the facts. Otherwise, according to this forum we should:

a) Ban all flying, driving, walking around etc
b) demand all citizens sign up to a declaration that its ok for them to be killed in the pursuance of other people's hobbies and interests
c) we slap an age limit on everything - presumably eating at both ends of the spectrum as our prejudices dictate - until we conclude that no-ne should be trusted regardless of their age
d) fly the arse off all the vintage aircraft until they do crash - because its art - at least for those lucky enough to see them before destruction - tough luck on future generations who might have more to learn/appreciate from an era further removed.

CAA have sensibly put a limit of fly-pasts on "vintage" aircraft for the foreseeable future. At least we can still see these aircraft in the air - that's good enough for me because they cannot outfly or out-wow the modern stuff.

One thing not examined in the forum is the culture of the organisation operating the aircraft? Why is it that BBMF can operate so prolifically, yet safely, compared to others? And they know a thing or 2 about showing-off the profile of a Spitfire's wings.
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Old 29th Aug 2015, 05:22
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One thing not examined in the forum is the culture of the organisation operating the aircraft? Why is it that BBMF can operate so prolifically, yet safely, compared to others? And they know a thing or 2 about showing-off the profile of a Spitfire's wings.
Not really fair. BBMF has its moments, remember the Hurricane. Also there are many more aircraft with lots of different collections and organizations also with exemplary records, it is just we remember the crashes.
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Old 29th Aug 2015, 07:00
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I am not for a second saying the pilot was too old or unfit to display, but merely raising the question that these factors for display pilots should be considered.
It is a sad fact (I know too well) that things start to deteriorate as we get older, our eyesight, reaction times and strength etc all suffer as our years progress.
At what point do we say you're too old for this activity or that activity? never if you're not putting anyone but yourself at risk I guess.
Thankyou Courtney mil for the reply about US studies and G, interesting, am sure at some point though that age does become a factor.
Above the clouds, re read my post, I stated that it was speculation but thanks anyway! and it was a military spec aircraft albeit as I said a fifty plus year old one and therefore combined with the manoeuvre a demanding aircraft to fly.
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Old 29th Aug 2015, 07:28
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Unless you go in for extreme aeros, I'm not convinced that being some racing snake or other serial jockstrapper has much relevance.

My first experience of 'g' was as a 15 year old cadet in the 'coal hole' of a Sea Vixen. I hadn't been briefed about 'g' and certainly greyed-out during the pull out from a simulated rocket attack. Then I went through training long before the introduction of the 'fitness test' and as a fully paid-up member of 'Athletics Anonymous*', never had no problems with 'g' tolerance. Even during a Hawk refresher after a tour on the tin triangle.

We still took the Hawk to +7g at Chivenor - not often, but without the dubious benefits of centrifuge time it wasn't much of a problem unless you tried pulling whilst looking over your shoulder. That could hurt!

Experience possibly develops an instinct of knowing when and how much to strain when under 'g'. Tailchasing in the Bulldog it wasn't unknown to see a much younger, fitter student having the odd 'quiet moment' during energetic manoeuvring.

The last time I flew any aeros was at the age of 57 in a Chipmunk after a break of 2 years. It didn't have a 'g' meter, but we probably pulled about +4g in a loop - again, no problem even for a non-athelete. Routine Class 1 medicals were fine, but I got fed up with the cost!

So no, a pilot with a Class 1 and plenty of 'g' experience in his/her background shouldn't have any great problem flying relatively benign aeros in the Hunter T7.

*Athletics Anonymous - if you have a sudden urge to commit sport, you phone up a mate who talks you into going to the pub instead

Last edited by BEagle; 29th Aug 2015 at 07:48.
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