Shortage of Navs
Thread Starter
Shortage of Navs
Navs? (or WSOs 
) apparently we're short of them and the PVR time is now the same as pilots. Even SO2 Navs, that have traditionally propped up the SO1/SO2 aircrew staff jobs. Is there a new FRI in the offing? Or will NEM skill based pay be higher?
Uh, oh, there goes a flying pig...
So with the new P8 rumour going from strength to strength, when is the Nav School reopening?
LJ
) apparently we're short of them and the PVR time is now the same as pilots. Even SO2 Navs, that have traditionally propped up the SO1/SO2 aircrew staff jobs. Is there a new FRI in the offing? Or will NEM skill based pay be higher?Uh, oh, there goes a flying pig...
So with the new P8 rumour going from strength to strength, when is the Nav School reopening?
LJ
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: ice station kilo
Posts: 200
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Navs? (or WSOs ) apparently we're short of them and the PVR time is now the same as pilots. Even SO2 Navs, that have traditionally propped up the SO1/SO2 aircrew staff jobs. Is there a new FRI in the offing? Or will NEM skill based pay be higher?
Uh, oh, there goes a flying pig...
So with the new P8 rumour going from strength to strength, when is the Nav School reopening?
LJ
) apparently we're short of them and the PVR time is now the same as pilots. Even SO2 Navs, that have traditionally propped up the SO1/SO2 aircrew staff jobs. Is there a new FRI in the offing? Or will NEM skill based pay be higher?Uh, oh, there goes a flying pig...
So with the new P8 rumour going from strength to strength, when is the Nav School reopening?
LJ
We don't need Navs, we will need WSOs; where can we get them from? Well how about selecting from WSOps?
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: 4 Civvy Street. Nowhere-near-a-base. The Shires.
Posts: 559
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
What WSOps? Many were redunded, PVR's are up again, and recruiting/training is very slow.
I know there are lots of them with talent to be great WSOs, but would the existing fleets be able to get sufficient new blood in to replace them?
I know there are lots of them with talent to be great WSOs, but would the existing fleets be able to get sufficient new blood in to replace them?
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Great Britain
Posts: 471
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
See my post on the P8 thread. The answer is that the RN will provide officer rear crew...this pipeline has remained open and the only rear crew training ties place at Culdrose.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: ice station kilo
Posts: 200
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bismark
I'm not so sure, 750 will have quite a job keeping the Merlin and Wildcat Observer pipeline topped up as well as the new RAF WSOp Sensor airborne training; even before the extra load of P8 Observers.
RAF WSOs if selected from the ranks of WSOps may well not need 750's services
p.s. Culdrose may well be the only place training officer rear crew. But it's certainly not the only place training rear crew.
I'm not so sure, 750 will have quite a job keeping the Merlin and Wildcat Observer pipeline topped up as well as the new RAF WSOp Sensor airborne training; even before the extra load of P8 Observers.
RAF WSOs if selected from the ranks of WSOps may well not need 750's services
p.s. Culdrose may well be the only place training officer rear crew. But it's certainly not the only place training rear crew.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: England
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BV
That reminds me of how the Italian Air Force established the crewing for their leased Tornado F3s in the mid 90s. The initial pilots were ex F104 drivers, some with masses of experience and ability, but irrespective of this, if they weren't academy graduates, they were selected for the back seat! Needless to say this didn't go down too well with Italian pride! It seems the majority of 'navs' tolerated their time on 56(R) Sqn, perfected their english language skills while on the course, and then bailed out as soon as they could for a job with Alitalia.
And LJ, if you're reading this, do you still have a copy of the bespoke FRCs from 'The Irrigator'? You'll know what I mean!
That reminds me of how the Italian Air Force established the crewing for their leased Tornado F3s in the mid 90s. The initial pilots were ex F104 drivers, some with masses of experience and ability, but irrespective of this, if they weren't academy graduates, they were selected for the back seat! Needless to say this didn't go down too well with Italian pride! It seems the majority of 'navs' tolerated their time on 56(R) Sqn, perfected their english language skills while on the course, and then bailed out as soon as they could for a job with Alitalia.
And LJ, if you're reading this, do you still have a copy of the bespoke FRCs from 'The Irrigator'? You'll know what I mean!
Thread Starter
Circle Kay
Nope, it's Navs that I'm hearing that are in short supply - any old WSO just won't do. 'Run on of legacy fleets' is the excuse I'm hearing and seeing as E3D, RJ, Reaper, Shadow and GR4 all use Navs and are running on then the broader skill set of Navs is still needed over a retread WSOp.
As for pilots in the boot - once they stop sulking they usually make lousy systems operators as if they were any good at it they would probably be flying single seat!
LJ
Nope, it's Navs that I'm hearing that are in short supply - any old WSO just won't do. 'Run on of legacy fleets' is the excuse I'm hearing and seeing as E3D, RJ, Reaper, Shadow and GR4 all use Navs and are running on then the broader skill set of Navs is still needed over a retread WSOp.
As for pilots in the boot - once they stop sulking they usually make lousy systems operators as if they were any good at it they would probably be flying single seat!
LJ
As for pilots in the boot - once they stop sulking they usually make lousy systems operators
Agreed, that does not work...Yanks tried it years ago with their nav shortage as P(WSO)s sat in F-111s and F-4s.
RAAF could probably assist with WSO training, or as our navs are now called, ACOs (Air Combat Officers).
Similar to many years ago during Vietnam War, RAF trained pilots for us due to greater requirement.
We have ongoing ACO needs for F/A-18F, P-3/P-8, E-7.
Agreed, that does not work...Yanks tried it years ago with their nav shortage as P(WSO)s sat in F-111s and F-4s.
RAAF could probably assist with WSO training, or as our navs are now called, ACOs (Air Combat Officers).
Similar to many years ago during Vietnam War, RAF trained pilots for us due to greater requirement.
We have ongoing ACO needs for F/A-18F, P-3/P-8, E-7.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: ice station kilo
Posts: 200
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LJ
Of your list of 5 current types the first 2 (E3D and RJ) require Navs on the Flight Deck.
The GR4 will of course require Navs till it's OSD. But Even if Nav School started on Monday the graduates wouldn't get to the front line in time (on current time scales).
But the other 2 do not require Navs to man, but you could argue the Sqns require rear crew execs.
Of your list of 5 current types the first 2 (E3D and RJ) require Navs on the Flight Deck.
The GR4 will of course require Navs till it's OSD. But Even if Nav School started on Monday the graduates wouldn't get to the front line in time (on current time scales).
But the other 2 do not require Navs to man, but you could argue the Sqns require rear crew execs.
LJ
I was going to continue but for OPSEC reasons I shall stop now. I've never operated with a Nav and have never done the job of a Nav so am probably not adequately qualified to comment anyway.
BV
BV
Thread Starter
Here is an interesting book that I thumbed through last time in the RAF Club (waiting for the pub to open...).
Observers and Navigators and Other Non-Pilot Aircrew in the RFC, RNAS and RAF
Part I traces the rise of the first generation of non-pilot aircrew, the observers, aerial gunners/gunlayers and kite balloon observers who flew with the RFC, RNAS and latterly the RAF between 1914 and 1919.
Part II examines the way in which the peacetime RAF rapidly dispensed with its observer officers and spent the next fifteen years attempting to make do by misemploying airmen as air gunners on a part-time basis. This inadequate practice is contrasted with the very positive attitude towards non-pilots that prevailed within the Royal Navy. The story continues with the reinstatement of observers in 1934, albeit still as part-time corporals until 1939. Wartime experience soon revealed that the omnipotence of pilots was a myth and by the summer of 1940 all observers and gunners were at least sergeants and increasing numbers were being commissioned. Part II goes on to examine the proliferation of non-pilot aircrew categories until 1942 when the system was substantially reorganised, the observer being supplanted by the air bomber and a variety of specialised types of navigator. This section ends with a summary of wartime training.
Part III covers the rest of the century, including the last two years of WW II and the ill-conceived '1946 Aircrew Scheme'. Following the latter's demise in 1950, the RAF adopted an all-officer policy for its pilots and navigators, the fact that they were to have equal career prospects having been announced as early as 1948. Part III examines the way in which this policy of equality has actually been applied while continuing to trace the rises and falls in the fortunes of all non-pilot categories to date.
What emerges, along with a much clearer impression of the crucial importance of non-pilots to the RAF, is a discriminatory attitude towards them. The author demonstrates that this attitude had its roots in the RFC where it became so institutionalised that its effects are still detectable today.
by Wing Commander C. G. Jefford
Part I traces the rise of the first generation of non-pilot aircrew, the observers, aerial gunners/gunlayers and kite balloon observers who flew with the RFC, RNAS and latterly the RAF between 1914 and 1919.
Part II examines the way in which the peacetime RAF rapidly dispensed with its observer officers and spent the next fifteen years attempting to make do by misemploying airmen as air gunners on a part-time basis. This inadequate practice is contrasted with the very positive attitude towards non-pilots that prevailed within the Royal Navy. The story continues with the reinstatement of observers in 1934, albeit still as part-time corporals until 1939. Wartime experience soon revealed that the omnipotence of pilots was a myth and by the summer of 1940 all observers and gunners were at least sergeants and increasing numbers were being commissioned. Part II goes on to examine the proliferation of non-pilot aircrew categories until 1942 when the system was substantially reorganised, the observer being supplanted by the air bomber and a variety of specialised types of navigator. This section ends with a summary of wartime training.
Part III covers the rest of the century, including the last two years of WW II and the ill-conceived '1946 Aircrew Scheme'. Following the latter's demise in 1950, the RAF adopted an all-officer policy for its pilots and navigators, the fact that they were to have equal career prospects having been announced as early as 1948. Part III examines the way in which this policy of equality has actually been applied while continuing to trace the rises and falls in the fortunes of all non-pilot categories to date.
What emerges, along with a much clearer impression of the crucial importance of non-pilots to the RAF, is a discriminatory attitude towards them. The author demonstrates that this attitude had its roots in the RFC where it became so institutionalised that its effects are still detectable today.
by Wing Commander C. G. Jefford
A worrying thought occurred to me (don't do it often so don't worry). If the rumours about buying P8 have any foundation in fact, the funding will have to come from somewhere in SDSR 2015. If Typhoon is now taking on a lot of AG roles and weapons, where might that leave Tornado?
I truly hope my fears are unfounded. Thing is, from an MoD/Government perspective, that would free up some Navs/WSOs for P8.
This sort of thing has been done before, as previous posters have shown. It's been done in the RAF. In these brutal times I just wonder.
Please come up with a thousand reasons why I'm wrong. It will make me feel better.
I truly hope my fears are unfounded. Thing is, from an MoD/Government perspective, that would free up some Navs/WSOs for P8.
This sort of thing has been done before, as previous posters have shown. It's been done in the RAF. In these brutal times I just wonder.
Please come up with a thousand reasons why I'm wrong. It will make me feel better.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Somewhere flat
Age: 68
Posts: 5,566
Likes: 0
Received 45 Likes
on
30 Posts
Are the Navs still streamed into Gp1 and Gp2? (until they stopped training of course). If so, then would WSO FJ have the appropriate background for WSO P8? Just a thought (speaking as a Gp1 nav who specialised in AEW and Radar and never navigated anything since the end of Nav School).