BBMF Lanc Engine Fire
What evidence do you have that ORS ignored Schrage Musik?
If the bomb load had gone off, the individual concerned would not have been around to tell the tale. Fuel tanks probably, bomb load highly unlikely.
Lancaster at War books? Have they just recently been published or been around for 40 years like the ones on my shelves?
Spend money to get inside one? I have never needed too. I have been given it for free!
If the bomb load had gone off, the individual concerned would not have been around to tell the tale. Fuel tanks probably, bomb load highly unlikely.
Lancaster at War books? Have they just recently been published or been around for 40 years like the ones on my shelves?
Spend money to get inside one? I have never needed too. I have been given it for free!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I have been in a Halifax cockpit and IIRC it was indeed more spacious than the Lanc. In the latter we didn't even consider the upper escape hatch but might have done had we been inverted.
Didn't consider a main door escape as the obstacle course was quite something. What I did consider was either diving under the instrument panel or simply using the nose hatch.
My main concern with the nose hatch was that of inadvertent opening.
Didn't consider a main door escape as the obstacle course was quite something. What I did consider was either diving under the instrument panel or simply using the nose hatch.
My main concern with the nose hatch was that of inadvertent opening.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Wiltshire
Age: 59
Posts: 903
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ORS estimated that 10,000 crewman lost their lives as the result of the rear Lancaster escape hatch being some 2 inches smaller than the Halifax and that the Halifax was more spacious than the Lancaster.
Pontius, I have often wondered if the higher Halifax survival rates were due to the fact that the W/op and Nav, were in the forward compartment in the nose?
November4, yes it does seem high, but it is only an estimate by ORS. One would think the fact that 68% of Lancasters crashed/ shot down with no survivors backs up their research, on my calculations that would equate to nearly 16,000 crewman. Almost half of all Lancasters delivered during the war (3,345 out of 7,373) were lost on operations with the loss of over 21,000 crew members. ORS were so concerned re the Lancaster hatches, that they campaigned for 2 years to change them. By the time they succeeded, the war was virtually over.
November4, yes it does seem high, but it is only an estimate by ORS. One would think the fact that 68% of Lancasters crashed/ shot down with no survivors backs up their research, on my calculations that would equate to nearly 16,000 crewman. Almost half of all Lancasters delivered during the war (3,345 out of 7,373) were lost on operations with the loss of over 21,000 crew members. ORS were so concerned re the Lancaster hatches, that they campaigned for 2 years to change them. By the time they succeeded, the war was virtually over.
Last edited by rolling20; 22nd Jul 2015 at 07:50.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 502
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, my late uncle vouched for the Lanc's survivability, having crash-landed twice at night with no injuries to the crew, on rtb from raids over Germany. OK, an exception and lucky, but that's the way it was for some crews.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Rolling, could well be. IIRC the Lanc wireless station was behind one spar and near the upper escape hatch, that was in front of the turret wasn't it?
I seem to think there was more space under the instrument panel on the Halifax.
I seem to think there was more space under the instrument panel on the Halifax.
Pontius, Its a long time since I crawled down a Lanc fuselage, so I can't comment on that hatch. Was it not the astrodome there? From discussion with crew members, it seems the front (Bomb Aimer) hatch and rear door, were the favoured routes. That main spar not helping the W/op or Nav. The pilot had a hatch I believe, but I don't think it was that practical.
Plenty of stories of Lancasters breaking up and the pilot surviving as he wore a seat type chute.
Plenty of stories of Lancasters breaking up and the pilot surviving as he wore a seat type chute.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Rolling, the cockpit glazing is like a conservatory sitting on top on the fuselage. The Astrodome is the back part and I don't think big enough. It certainly wasn't when I bounced through it but not out of it 
.
Yes, I think there was a hatch above the pilot but probably inaccessible unless bailed out after.
IIRC, my mother in law's boyfriend, was who a FE on Halifax didn't get out. I think some of them did.
.Yes, I think there was a hatch above the pilot but probably inaccessible unless bailed out after.
IIRC, my mother in law's boyfriend, was who a FE on Halifax didn't get out. I think some of them did.
Pontius, I guess it was a bit of a lottery to who got out and who didn't, bit like 27mm late Uncle surviving 2 crash landings. Luck and fate could be around in equal measure.
As you say the Lancaster cockpit was a conservatory, great for viz, but not very useful in helping any escape.
As you say the Lancaster cockpit was a conservatory, great for viz, but not very useful in helping any escape.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Chesterfield
Age: 42
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What evidence do you have that ORS ignored Schrage Musik?
If the bomb load had gone off, the individual concerned would not have been around to tell the tale. Fuel tanks probably, bomb load highly unlikely.
Lancaster at War books? Have they just recently been published or been around for 40 years like the ones on my shelves?
Spend money to get inside one? I have never needed too. I have been given it for free!
To refresh your memory the upper hatches on the Lancaster fuselage are ditching/escape hatches and not parachute exits! On most versions there's one between main and trailing spar in the centre section and one just in front of the mid upper turret, and the one over the pilot.
Here's an extract from the Pilots Notes.
Parachute exit Hatch in floor of nose should be used by all members of crew if time is available; originally it was released by a handle in the centre, lifted inwards and jettisoned, but when Mod. 1336 is incorporated the hatch is enlarged and is opened by a handle at the port side. It opens inwards and is secured by a clip which holds the hatch up on the starboard side. It can also be opened from outside the aircraft.
Crash exits
(i) On Lancaster I. III and X three push-out panels are fitted in the roof (one above the pilot, one just forward of the rear spar, and one forward of the mid-upper turret) except when Mod. 977 (which moves the mid-upper turret forward) is incorporated, in which case the Ihird panel is deleted,
(ii) On Lancaster VII there are two push-out panels in the roof, one above the pilot and one just forward of the rear spar.
Regards,
Rich
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
RW, thanks, I had always been worried that the nose hatch would fall out and me with it.
Yes, good point about the upper hatches for crash,ditch, exits.
Getting to the forward hatch from aft was not easy and more so in the dark with a gyrating aircraft.
Yes, good point about the upper hatches for crash,ditch, exits.
Getting to the forward hatch from aft was not easy and more so in the dark with a gyrating aircraft.
Richard woods, did you call me an idiot?????!!!!!!!!
.
In all my 15 years on pprune you are the most odious, bigoted, narrow minded individual i have ever encountered!
You seem to think that coffee table books seem to give you some kind of knowledge to pontificate on a subject, well it doesn't!
Research does not come from reading a book you can buy at wh smith. You choose to ignore facts that were come by the hard way, comparing the not too pleasant facts of daily death and casualties among bomber command crews. They were compiled by men and women that were chosen for their expertise and rose post war to become eminent in their field. You dismiss that research and shame on you for it. Further, you show your total lack of understanding of the subject matter.
Like you dismiss the research presented to you, i can now dismiss you.
Mods please take note of his OFFENSIVE previous post!
stop being an idiot
In all my 15 years on pprune you are the most odious, bigoted, narrow minded individual i have ever encountered!
You seem to think that coffee table books seem to give you some kind of knowledge to pontificate on a subject, well it doesn't!
Research does not come from reading a book you can buy at wh smith. You choose to ignore facts that were come by the hard way, comparing the not too pleasant facts of daily death and casualties among bomber command crews. They were compiled by men and women that were chosen for their expertise and rose post war to become eminent in their field. You dismiss that research and shame on you for it. Further, you show your total lack of understanding of the subject matter.
Like you dismiss the research presented to you, i can now dismiss you.
Mods please take note of his OFFENSIVE previous post!
Last edited by rolling20; 22nd Jul 2015 at 15:17.
PN that was always my concern too, can rest easy now!
Upper hatches were normally left open for display flying and transits, believe it has something to do with carbon monoxide and she get quite hot inside despite the sometimes poor UK summer weather.
Upper hatches were normally left open for display flying and transits, believe it has something to do with carbon monoxide and she get quite hot inside despite the sometimes poor UK summer weather.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
SB, not when I was on it.
Bring a to mind a RNlN P2V on a display at Den Helder diving at 300kts when the right hand upper escape hatch unleashed. The cdr in the seat grabbed the handle. I was told the tail cone popped off.
Bring a to mind a RNlN P2V on a display at Den Helder diving at 300kts when the right hand upper escape hatch unleashed. The cdr in the seat grabbed the handle. I was told the tail cone popped off.
Has the cause of the fire been identified yet? Shackman asked in May, but I haven't seen any response. I would like to think that the cause of the fire has at least been considered in designing the repairs.
As I read those posts, they tell the effect, and the issues about restoring to flight, but not the cause in the first place. I think people are interested, if the info is available. Surely it cannot be a state secret.