Possible new humanitarian/rescue operation coming up.
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Possible new humanitarian/rescue operation coming up.
Spin off from the long running Maritime aircraft requirement.
Cameron and Clegg admit axing search and rescue in Mediterranean has failed | UK news | The Guardian
EU leaders convene shortly to talk about what to do about the Med refugee crisis. I think I read the death toll of poor drowned people is x20 to what it was this time last year.
Something must be done. Although to quote the Irish man, I wouldn't start from here.
My guess is the RN and RFA with appropriate RM back up will be tasked to bring in an appropriate rescue capability, to find and lift out refugees and reduce the overall death rate. Just a guess mind-watch and see.
What the RAF will assist with (and I also bet they have to), I don't know.
I could be wrong, but I think the constant pressure of TV images of drowning people is having an affect on EU politicians images and ratings, and they must be seen to act. Italy and Malta were crying out for help the other night on BBC.
May be votes in it, maybe not and it may inflame the right wing element NO camp, so UK politicians right now will have to play a canny game on this one.
But I think they have to act and so does the military, now. Sorry.
Cameron and Clegg admit axing search and rescue in Mediterranean has failed | UK news | The Guardian
EU leaders convene shortly to talk about what to do about the Med refugee crisis. I think I read the death toll of poor drowned people is x20 to what it was this time last year.
Something must be done. Although to quote the Irish man, I wouldn't start from here.
My guess is the RN and RFA with appropriate RM back up will be tasked to bring in an appropriate rescue capability, to find and lift out refugees and reduce the overall death rate. Just a guess mind-watch and see.
What the RAF will assist with (and I also bet they have to), I don't know.
I could be wrong, but I think the constant pressure of TV images of drowning people is having an affect on EU politicians images and ratings, and they must be seen to act. Italy and Malta were crying out for help the other night on BBC.
May be votes in it, maybe not and it may inflame the right wing element NO camp, so UK politicians right now will have to play a canny game on this one.
But I think they have to act and so does the military, now. Sorry.
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The problem I see is in rescuing them and bringing them to Europe, it will simply encourage more to try knowing they only need to get so far out, somehow the action to stop them attempting it needs to be at the departure end, possibly by assisting their Governments..
The other option is to return those rescued via a LCT or similar straight back onto the shore they departed from, the other unpalatable option would be to sink any likely ship or boats etc in the harbours along their coastline.
Personally I would simply not allow them entry nor any form of asylum application and use the LCT option to return them from whence they came.
..
The other option is to return those rescued via a LCT or similar straight back onto the shore they departed from, the other unpalatable option would be to sink any likely ship or boats etc in the harbours along their coastline.
Personally I would simply not allow them entry nor any form of asylum application and use the LCT option to return them from whence they came.
..
Last edited by NutLoose; 22nd Apr 2015 at 19:14.
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That option may happen, but what if they are dying? Do you expect UK servicemen to dump people on a beach and leave them?
Its an absolute growing crisis that's been coming for months and it is now and needs serious solutions.
We, the UK in a way have assisted the creation of this crisis.
Its an absolute growing crisis that's been coming for months and it is now and needs serious solutions.
We, the UK in a way have assisted the creation of this crisis.
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People on here hate me for putting these threads up. But I've watched for years this crisis coming, and its going to get dumped onto the UK military (what remains of it) to assist with other EU military in applying a sticking plaster. Read Cleggs comments, he is really hinting at it.
"Now we need to make sure we do more to save lives. That will involve more search and rescue and there is a contribution I’m sure we can make to that".
Something is coming up for some of you.
RAF should be making something more of it, leverage for new patrol aircraft. So should the Navy.
"Now we need to make sure we do more to save lives. That will involve more search and rescue and there is a contribution I’m sure we can make to that".
Something is coming up for some of you.
RAF should be making something more of it, leverage for new patrol aircraft. So should the Navy.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Mrs PN suggests segregation. Mothers, children, and proven fathers be admitted and considered for asylum. Young fit men are almost certainly economic migrants and should be returned to point of departure.
Blockading Libyian ports would certainly reduce the potential for drowning from overcrowding.
Blockading Libyian ports would certainly reduce the potential for drowning from overcrowding.
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Hangarshuffle, if they are dying or injured they should be treated before returning them, but that can be carried out on board a hospital ship or similar. They then can be returned.
I surprises me they haven't tried it to access the UK.
I surprises me they haven't tried it to access the UK.
Lets face it, once they are across they won't get sent back so we may as well cut out the middle man and ship them in ourselves. At least that way we are in control.
The only way to stop it is to stop it being so attractive in the first place. If, in effect, they are given free food, clothing and housing once they are here, it is not a great deterrent.
Perhaps the large sums of money that government spend on them should be spent on making their original places more enticing, that way they wouldn't need to leave.
Of course we all know that if that were the case, most of the money would be syphoned off anyway and things would be no better...
The only way to stop it is to stop it being so attractive in the first place. If, in effect, they are given free food, clothing and housing once they are here, it is not a great deterrent.
Perhaps the large sums of money that government spend on them should be spent on making their original places more enticing, that way they wouldn't need to leave.
Of course we all know that if that were the case, most of the money would be syphoned off anyway and things would be no better...
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What a mess. Criminal , illegitimate , incompetent and unelected African governments encourage and perpetuate an emigration of their populations northwards to an overcrowded and increasingly poor Europe. Too proud and guilty of their own colonial history to say no , Europe's future looks bleak. Combine this ticking time bomb with the rise of radical Islam throughout Europe , an enormous demographic shift , Greek weakness , a failed European diplomatic and currency project and it's not much of a leap to conclude that a war is on the horizon. European death by 1000 cuts.
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The politicians have to move before the military can do anything, and they aren't going to do squat. Obama and Hillary caused the current mess in Libya, so perhaps they should sort it out.
Bob C
Bob C
Hangarshuffle said:
Is that the sound of chickens coming home to roost? Or is it merely the anguished cries of the leaders' wives at yet another kitchen table supper? Where on earth do these people think we can keep rustling up capability from whilst they keep cutting it and neglecting what's left??? We might be able to do more SAR if we hadn't chopped the carrier, the entire MPA fleet and signalled the death of the SAR fleet.
If we're going to do anything I can only see one viable COA. Assuming Ex Cougar runs again this year, then it goes to the Med and involves HMS Ocean, LPDs and various RFAs and hospital/ casualty ships. Embarked, the SAR cabs have a final hurrah alongside the Merlins, whilst the AH are used in support of counter-ISIL ops in Libya. This would have to be part of a multinational effort given the scale if the problem and a decision needs to be made right now, most likely at tomorrow's Special Meeting of the European Council in order to get ahead of planning to and decision timelines if they are to be on station in time for the best weather when there's an even greater surge of people making a run for it. Waiting until after the election and someone making a decision will be too late.
Above all else, there must be no further cuts regardless of whether Defence is ring fenced or not and there must be an assessment of what else drops off in order to meet this commitment - don't even think about trying to go to Yemen if we're going to do this. And finally, there must be a coherent policy and strategy (there's that S word again!) to deal with the crux of the problem rather than just treating the symptoms. Without a coherent policy and strategy you'll end up with a constant roulement of people earning frequent flier miles as they head out to sea, sink, get rescued by SAR, return home and start the whole sorry saga once again.
That's it Mr Clegg. That's your option. And it will be very very expensive. Other than that the cupboard is not only bare, the door is hanging off the hinges and even the church mouse having a look inside seems distinctly unimpressed. The RAF - pulling rabbits out of hats since 1918.
"Now we need to make sure we do more to save lives. That will involve more search and rescue and there is a contribution I’m sure we can make to that".
If we're going to do anything I can only see one viable COA. Assuming Ex Cougar runs again this year, then it goes to the Med and involves HMS Ocean, LPDs and various RFAs and hospital/ casualty ships. Embarked, the SAR cabs have a final hurrah alongside the Merlins, whilst the AH are used in support of counter-ISIL ops in Libya. This would have to be part of a multinational effort given the scale if the problem and a decision needs to be made right now, most likely at tomorrow's Special Meeting of the European Council in order to get ahead of planning to and decision timelines if they are to be on station in time for the best weather when there's an even greater surge of people making a run for it. Waiting until after the election and someone making a decision will be too late.
Above all else, there must be no further cuts regardless of whether Defence is ring fenced or not and there must be an assessment of what else drops off in order to meet this commitment - don't even think about trying to go to Yemen if we're going to do this. And finally, there must be a coherent policy and strategy (there's that S word again!) to deal with the crux of the problem rather than just treating the symptoms. Without a coherent policy and strategy you'll end up with a constant roulement of people earning frequent flier miles as they head out to sea, sink, get rescued by SAR, return home and start the whole sorry saga once again.
That's it Mr Clegg. That's your option. And it will be very very expensive. Other than that the cupboard is not only bare, the door is hanging off the hinges and even the church mouse having a look inside seems distinctly unimpressed. The RAF - pulling rabbits out of hats since 1918.
What a mess. Criminal , illegitimate , incompetent and unelected African governments encourage and perpetuate an emigration of their populations northwards to an overcrowded and increasingly poor Europe. Too proud and guilty of their own colonial history to say no , Europe's future looks bleak. Combine this ticking time bomb with the rise of radical Islam throughout Europe , an enormous demographic shift , Greek weakness , a failed European diplomatic and currency project and it's not much of a leap to conclude that a war is on the horizon. European death by 1000 cuts.
We are victims of our own stupidity and self-righteousness...
Melchett, top post IMHO ! Whilst we remain the sheople we are, re electing the same old same old, we get no change, and the whole hand wringing mess is prolonged. Your description of the cutting yet demanding more is, as usual, accurate and to the point. Perhaps a vote for someone new come 7 May might be appropriate.
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The migration crisis in its current iteration stems from the fall of Libya's Muammar Qaddafi. Under Qaddafi, Libya worked closely with Europe to control the flow of migrants across the Mediterranean. But the country's chaos has upended that. In 2010, Europe was moving quickly to normalize relations with the former dictator. Oil interests played a role, but so did the desire of many European nations to outsource migrant control to the North African country.
Mr. Qaddafi was well aware of European alarm at the rising tide of migrants in his final years in power. He used it as a powerful wedge to improve his own standing. Back to 2004, Qaddafi began making deals with individual European states to control the tide of migrants. In August 2010, he visited his friend Silvio Berlusconi, then president of Italy, in Rome and said Europe would turn "black" without his help.
The U.S.-NATO intervention that toppled Moammar Gadhafi has led to an Islamist state where young militant men with heavy firepower control the country’s airports, harbors and major roads. Militias roam the countryside. Former al Qaeda terrorists and Taliban fighters have infiltrated the country, targeting moderate Muslims and blacks. The nation is splintering along ideological, sectarian and tribal lines. This is not a victory for humanitarianism but anarchy.
Libya's chaos has once more made it a major way station for Africans seeking a better life, as the European Union grapples with the morality of cutting back on patrols to rescue migrants. The argument for doing less is that increasing the risk of crossing the Mediterranean would save lives. Word that there was no safety net would filter back to people, many of them fleeing persecution, and they'd stop coming.
“We do not support planned search and rescue operations in the Mediterranean,” British Foreign Office Minister Joyce Anelay said last year. Rescues have “an unintended ‘pull factor,' encouraging more migrants to attempt the dangerous sea crossing and thereby leading to more tragic and unnecessary deaths,” she argued.
Obama and NATO have a lot to answer for here. Melchett’s solution via Ex Cougar may be the answer.
Mr. Qaddafi was well aware of European alarm at the rising tide of migrants in his final years in power. He used it as a powerful wedge to improve his own standing. Back to 2004, Qaddafi began making deals with individual European states to control the tide of migrants. In August 2010, he visited his friend Silvio Berlusconi, then president of Italy, in Rome and said Europe would turn "black" without his help.
The U.S.-NATO intervention that toppled Moammar Gadhafi has led to an Islamist state where young militant men with heavy firepower control the country’s airports, harbors and major roads. Militias roam the countryside. Former al Qaeda terrorists and Taliban fighters have infiltrated the country, targeting moderate Muslims and blacks. The nation is splintering along ideological, sectarian and tribal lines. This is not a victory for humanitarianism but anarchy.
Libya's chaos has once more made it a major way station for Africans seeking a better life, as the European Union grapples with the morality of cutting back on patrols to rescue migrants. The argument for doing less is that increasing the risk of crossing the Mediterranean would save lives. Word that there was no safety net would filter back to people, many of them fleeing persecution, and they'd stop coming.
“We do not support planned search and rescue operations in the Mediterranean,” British Foreign Office Minister Joyce Anelay said last year. Rescues have “an unintended ‘pull factor,' encouraging more migrants to attempt the dangerous sea crossing and thereby leading to more tragic and unnecessary deaths,” she argued.
Obama and NATO have a lot to answer for here. Melchett’s solution via Ex Cougar may be the answer.
Bobster, in a race to blame Obama for everything, you seem to have gone on a poorly-executed 'I can haz copypasta' exercise in which 'Muammar Qaddafi' suddenly becomes 'Moammar Gadhafi'.
It's a poor attempt to place all available blame on the current incumbent of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue (rather than on the bumblefark good ole boy who lit the blue touchpaper in the Middle East in 2003 before retiring to a safe distance to paint pictures of his feet). And by the way, it was the the Blessed St. Ronnie of Gipper who ordered the 1986 bombing of Libya, so attempts to absolve the GOP of responsibility fail on yet another level.
1/10 for trying.
It's a poor attempt to place all available blame on the current incumbent of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue (rather than on the bumblefark good ole boy who lit the blue touchpaper in the Middle East in 2003 before retiring to a safe distance to paint pictures of his feet). And by the way, it was the the Blessed St. Ronnie of Gipper who ordered the 1986 bombing of Libya, so attempts to absolve the GOP of responsibility fail on yet another level.
1/10 for trying.
Call me a pedant, but ISTR Op El Dorado Canyon was actually a retaliation for the Libyan bombing of a Berlin disco (preceded by much c0cking about in the Gulf of Sirte and Chad) and had the effect of significantly reducing the practical (if not verbal) level of support for the 80s brand of Arabic terrorist.
I may be wrong, but one of the less-trumpeted (by some) consequences of Op Telic/OIF was that a certain N African dictator, having realised that people were getting serious about WMD proliferation, suddenly coughed to maintaining both production and storage facilities for some rather unpleasant nasties and offered to destroy them under supervision (with an aid package, natch).
Now IMPO Barry O'Bama is a bit of an @rse, but he has undisputedly suggested to Europe that it's about time it stood on its own two feet and looked after interests on its own doorstep, rather than expecting Uncle Sam to pop up and do the necessary instead. And about time too.
Much like Iraq, people are way too quick to get a dose of rose-tinted hindsight when sh1t happens and immediately activate the "blame whichever western government suits your political position" switch, rather than point out that this is in fact an African / Arabian governance issue, exacerbated by an ongoing Sunni/Shia proxy war. It's got very little to do with the West, other than the fact that our media luvvies expect the West to somehow sort it out, because "something must be done!"
Don't forget that a major contributory factor in all this was the media-led "Arab Spring", where a bunch of half-witted (if we're being charitable) journos tried to portray things as an outbreak of happiness where the masses would magically discover pluralist democracy, all enabled by the enlightened support of the religion of peace. Which was a stretch of the actualite to put it mildly.
The actual trigger for the Op Ellamy was the threatened extermination of the rebels and civpop of Benghazi. Whether it was a good idea to extend that operation into provision of an air capability for the rebels is a different question. However - the vision of what happens when you don't intervene is also available in technicolour in Syria and it's not like that's going well for the civpop either.
Short version - the cause of all this is not "the West". It's not the Red Sea Pedestrians either. It's actually a vicious sectarian war being played out between Sunni and Shia, with lashings of poverty thrown in as well. To fix it would require intervention on the ground at a scale that we have tested to destruction whether the public will support - and the answer is, they won't.
Unpleasant as it is, we have to learn to live with it and prevent it spreading to Europe, proper.
I may be wrong, but one of the less-trumpeted (by some) consequences of Op Telic/OIF was that a certain N African dictator, having realised that people were getting serious about WMD proliferation, suddenly coughed to maintaining both production and storage facilities for some rather unpleasant nasties and offered to destroy them under supervision (with an aid package, natch).
Now IMPO Barry O'Bama is a bit of an @rse, but he has undisputedly suggested to Europe that it's about time it stood on its own two feet and looked after interests on its own doorstep, rather than expecting Uncle Sam to pop up and do the necessary instead. And about time too.
Much like Iraq, people are way too quick to get a dose of rose-tinted hindsight when sh1t happens and immediately activate the "blame whichever western government suits your political position" switch, rather than point out that this is in fact an African / Arabian governance issue, exacerbated by an ongoing Sunni/Shia proxy war. It's got very little to do with the West, other than the fact that our media luvvies expect the West to somehow sort it out, because "something must be done!"
Don't forget that a major contributory factor in all this was the media-led "Arab Spring", where a bunch of half-witted (if we're being charitable) journos tried to portray things as an outbreak of happiness where the masses would magically discover pluralist democracy, all enabled by the enlightened support of the religion of peace. Which was a stretch of the actualite to put it mildly.
The actual trigger for the Op Ellamy was the threatened extermination of the rebels and civpop of Benghazi. Whether it was a good idea to extend that operation into provision of an air capability for the rebels is a different question. However - the vision of what happens when you don't intervene is also available in technicolour in Syria and it's not like that's going well for the civpop either.
Short version - the cause of all this is not "the West". It's not the Red Sea Pedestrians either. It's actually a vicious sectarian war being played out between Sunni and Shia, with lashings of poverty thrown in as well. To fix it would require intervention on the ground at a scale that we have tested to destruction whether the public will support - and the answer is, they won't.
Unpleasant as it is, we have to learn to live with it and prevent it spreading to Europe, proper.
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As Predicted: Overthrow of Qaddafi Led to Horrific Migrant Crisis in Europe / Sputnik International
West Should Take Responsibility for Chaos in Libya ? Prime Minister / Sputnik International
West Should Take Responsibility for Chaos in Libya ? Prime Minister / Sputnik International
To stop people dying at sea, you intercept them, look after them medically and process them offshore. Those who are deemed to be true refugees, then get offered settlement in whatever country is willing to take them. Those who are deemed to be economic refugees get returned to the point of origin, in unsinkable lifeboats if needed. Sound familiar? Economic refugees from Iran, Sri Lanka and various other countries stopped paying the people smugglers when they realised the best they could hope for was PNG citizenship and not Australian.
No, no, no Surplus, don't feed the troll!! 
Actually, I suspect there are two Kremlin troll-bots using the Ronald moniker - one that does actually have something reasonably interesting to say occasionally, and another who is only capable of posting links to RT/Sputnik/CCTV/Press TV et al, with no reasoned thoughts of his own to add.
Sadly, the latter appears to have resurfaced again (I guess they must be working them in shifts).
Actually, I suspect there are two Kremlin troll-bots using the Ronald moniker - one that does actually have something reasonably interesting to say occasionally, and another who is only capable of posting links to RT/Sputnik/CCTV/Press TV et al, with no reasoned thoughts of his own to add.
Sadly, the latter appears to have resurfaced again (I guess they must be working them in shifts).
