23 DFCs
Impressive! As a 'plank' who has only flown in rotary twice of his own free will - once before I knew any better 
and once to please a colleague who wanted to show me how he could insert his 'angry palm tree' into a hill clearing - I've thought of the situation in the ME of being low, slow and very obvious to the bad guys. Day after day - respect!.
I'll probably have the honour of saying hello at an annual reunion I attend at the new Chinook base.
and once to please a colleague who wanted to show me how he could insert his 'angry palm tree' into a hill clearing - I've thought of the situation in the ME of being low, slow and very obvious to the bad guys. Day after day - respect!.I'll probably have the honour of saying hello at an annual reunion I attend at the new Chinook base.
HH - if you are referring to the DFC recipients then that is not the case. Read my link which I gave earlier (post 12) - all names up to 2012 are listed, with the relevant LG date.
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41,000 hrs on operations!
How was the airworthiness?
Was the MOK Chinook just bad luck or was airworthiness just a smokescreen to blanket other aspects, one wonders?
How was the airworthiness?
Was the MOK Chinook just bad luck or was airworthiness just a smokescreen to blanket other aspects, one wonders?
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How was the airworthiness?
Was the MOK Chinook just bad luck or was airworthiness just a smokescreen to blanket other aspects, one wonders?
Was the MOK Chinook just bad luck or was airworthiness just a smokescreen to blanket other aspects, one wonders?
ShyTorque,
Many people don't believe the MOK was a whitewash but, of course, you are entitled to that view.
However, I agree - let's leave it off this Thread.
O-D
Many people don't believe the MOK was a whitewash but, of course, you are entitled to that view.
However, I agree - let's leave it off this Thread.
O-D
Last edited by Old-Duffer; 30th Mar 2015 at 05:31. Reason: poor grammar!
My only experience of SH was in NI back in the 80s so no, I don't have any 'real SH' background - but I seem to remember we got shot at, RPG'd, mortared and targeted by snipers all the time (and this in part of our own country) and took a great many IED-caused casualties to hospital. There were many brave things done and plenty of danger to face all with just a flare pistol and a GPMG to defend ourselves with and no other air support to call in.
Looking at the Wiki list it would appear that only 2 DFCs were awarded (1 RAF 1 AAC) during the many years we were there. Getting shot at by the enemy was just doing your job, not the reason for getting a medal.
I do appreciate the intensity of the threat faced by the SH force in Afghan and, as long as those many DFCs are meant to represent the collective effort made by the SH force, then that is fine; it is the same with AFCs in the SAR Force, many outstanding rescues go unnoticed but a few get the gongs - it is for the whole SAR force not the lucky individuals who got written up.
Some citations get massively embellished on both sides to ensure the award is given but getting shot at and then flying home isn't necessarily what I (and possibly a few of my generation) would consider deserving of such a high award.
I still applaud the efforts of the SH force for doing their job well in difficult circumstances.
Looking at the Wiki list it would appear that only 2 DFCs were awarded (1 RAF 1 AAC) during the many years we were there. Getting shot at by the enemy was just doing your job, not the reason for getting a medal.
I do appreciate the intensity of the threat faced by the SH force in Afghan and, as long as those many DFCs are meant to represent the collective effort made by the SH force, then that is fine; it is the same with AFCs in the SAR Force, many outstanding rescues go unnoticed but a few get the gongs - it is for the whole SAR force not the lucky individuals who got written up.
Some citations get massively embellished on both sides to ensure the award is given but getting shot at and then flying home isn't necessarily what I (and possibly a few of my generation) would consider deserving of such a high award.
I still applaud the efforts of the SH force for doing their job well in difficult circumstances.
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Yup .There in the mid 70's including flying with the AAC (particularly Beaver flight) and SH HeliDet.
GSM slid under the back door as an inconvenient after thought, after two consecutive roulements.
But ( as I was told at that time) , my Branch weren't officially supposed to be there then anyway ...................
( 106 IED jobs supporting the Army in those months during my initial tenure , without loss of life)
Then came back after a short leave, straight into the Cortreasa Bridge inquiry. (Q Garside etc.)
Yup .There in the mid 70's including flying with the AAC (particularly Beaver flight) and SH HeliDet.
GSM slid under the back door as an inconvenient after thought, after two consecutive roulements.
But ( as I was told at that time) , my Branch weren't officially supposed to be there then anyway ...................
( 106 IED jobs supporting the Army in those months during my initial tenure , without loss of life)
Then came back after a short leave, straight into the Cortreasa Bridge inquiry. (Q Garside etc.)
Last edited by Haraka; 31st Mar 2015 at 17:21.
Like Chimpy (regards from the TRI who called you 'Jim', btw!), I post here less frequently these days. However, Crab, I have to say that I don't think you realise just how different internal security in NI (not really SH, and having worked various different sides of several fences I feel qualified to pontificate) was/is from a theatre of war. By an order of magnitude, probably.
Yes, there were bombings, shootings and even the odd RPG popped-off in UK territory. Mortaring was a genuine threat too. Occasionally. In most cases the perpetrators were known, even tracked, but could only be countered iaw RoE which were appropriate to actions in support of the police.
You say:
- but I really don't think you do. The sheer volume of the threat (numbers, weapons, capability) faced by SH in Afghanistan (and Iraq), plus the rapidity of threat development as the opposition learned from their (and our) mistakes simply dwarves anything we 70s-90s heli drivers ever faced. Your ability to pop back to the mess after hours, or out to Maud's for ice-cream or even downtown Lisburn/wherever for a trip to the supermarket/cinema/pub indicates a totally different level of commitment to the conflict on both sides. PIRA/INLA and others generally liked to live to fight another day; not necessarily the case in recent conflicts.
You feel that your early exposure to non-yellow helis entitles you to make a judgement on what SH crews have faced. I strongly disagree, and find that
doesn't go anywhere near what people I have worked with had to face, let alone get written-up for. Your final comments have a whiff of 'damning with faint praise'. Not your finest submission, IMNSHO.
Yes, there were bombings, shootings and even the odd RPG popped-off in UK territory. Mortaring was a genuine threat too. Occasionally. In most cases the perpetrators were known, even tracked, but could only be countered iaw RoE which were appropriate to actions in support of the police.
You say:
I do appreciate the intensity of the threat faced by the SH force in Afghan
You feel that your early exposure to non-yellow helis entitles you to make a judgement on what SH crews have faced. I strongly disagree, and find that
but getting shot at and then flying home isn't necessarily what I (and possibly a few of my generation) would consider deserving of such a high award
This little spat brings to mind the phrase used in a book called : "101 Nights" - a novel about the ABC carrying Lancasters of 101 Sqn at Ludford Magna.
F/S nav (with BEM for gallantry) to pompous career sqn ldr, out to make a name (and a medal) for himself nearing the end of the war.
"Sir, it's not how many hours you've got, it's what you've got into the hours".
Old Duffer
F/S nav (with BEM for gallantry) to pompous career sqn ldr, out to make a name (and a medal) for himself nearing the end of the war.
"Sir, it's not how many hours you've got, it's what you've got into the hours".
Old Duffer
Your final comments have a whiff of 'damning with faint praise'. Not your finest submission, IMNSHO.
As for intensity of threat, this would normally be indicated by the casualty count - something the troops on the ground have suffered horribly.
We didn't lose a single crew (thank God) and I believe any aircraft lost were taken out by our own side to deny the kit and int on board to the enemy.
I get it that the crews worked long hours in **** conditions - life in a blue suit I think that is called - and the physical and emotional challenge of that work clearly took its toll on the crews in other ways than bullet wounds.
It was a good campaign by the SH Force (and all others involved) but, as I said earlier, it wasn't the Battle of Britain and 27 DFCs with no lives lost seems slightly at odds with some of the chest-beating. There is no doubting the bravery of the crews but were there really 27 occasions where really above and beyond levels of bravery were demonstrated?
At the end of the day, they all came back safe - which is what really matters.
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Crab,
Speaking as someone who had (I'm relieved to say) a rather less exciting RAF career, but helped train some of a previous generation of SH pilots, I think on this occasion, you are bang out of order. I haven't actually seen any chest beating from anyone, either here or elsewhere.
Speaking as someone who had (I'm relieved to say) a rather less exciting RAF career, but helped train some of a previous generation of SH pilots, I think on this occasion, you are bang out of order. I haven't actually seen any chest beating from anyone, either here or elsewhere.
Crab,
You've dug yourself into a hole and are busy trying to lower in a JCB to make it deeper; in short you are being an arse.
There are things you don't know, because you don't need to know, but suffice to say several members of the Chinook Force literally have scars ( and sutured holes) that attest to the ferocity of the activity they were engaged in. The Junglies, Lynx, Apache and Merlin guys have similar experiences.
The occasional RPG or mortar in South Armagh does not compare with CASEVAC's when the LS looks like a scene from Star Wars, or a deliberate air assault into a heavily contested EF location.
Suggest you stop being such a dick, and commenting on something you don't understand. I have the greatest of respect for both the SAR Force and those that experienced NI close up at the height of the troubles, but you are coming across as uninformed, out of touch and a little bitter.
As a bottom line - I don't really think those who's hard won awards you feel the need to evaluate or validate really give a rats crap what you're opinion is anyway.
You've dug yourself into a hole and are busy trying to lower in a JCB to make it deeper; in short you are being an arse.
There are things you don't know, because you don't need to know, but suffice to say several members of the Chinook Force literally have scars ( and sutured holes) that attest to the ferocity of the activity they were engaged in. The Junglies, Lynx, Apache and Merlin guys have similar experiences.
The occasional RPG or mortar in South Armagh does not compare with CASEVAC's when the LS looks like a scene from Star Wars, or a deliberate air assault into a heavily contested EF location.
Suggest you stop being such a dick, and commenting on something you don't understand. I have the greatest of respect for both the SAR Force and those that experienced NI close up at the height of the troubles, but you are coming across as uninformed, out of touch and a little bitter.
As a bottom line - I don't really think those who's hard won awards you feel the need to evaluate or validate really give a rats crap what you're opinion is anyway.
Last edited by minigundiplomat; 1st Apr 2015 at 17:19.
Well, pardon me for having an opinion, I'll leave it at that. Not the first time I have been personally attacked for daring to have a view on a subject and it surely won't be the last.
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While Crab is getting a severe bashing I must admit to slightly agreeing with him. It is no coincidence that the majority were awarded to RAF crew (whether on exchange or not). I know of at least one that was strongly opposed to by RN personnel out there at the time to the point it was suggested disciplinary action may be more appropriate. While I do not agree any such action should have been brought, there was some merit to what was said.
The problem with inter service rivalry out there was at times embarrassing but I can't say it lead to undeserved DFCs. What I can say is if some RN and Army events had occurred to RAF crews they would have received DFCs and likewise the RN wouldn't have awarded many of the RAF DFCs. I do think that the RN is extremely reluctant to award medals rightly or wrongly.
All that said all the crews were there to do a job and a good job they did. Well done to all recipients of not just the DFCs but other awards such as MiD. BZ
The problem with inter service rivalry out there was at times embarrassing but I can't say it lead to undeserved DFCs. What I can say is if some RN and Army events had occurred to RAF crews they would have received DFCs and likewise the RN wouldn't have awarded many of the RAF DFCs. I do think that the RN is extremely reluctant to award medals rightly or wrongly.
All that said all the crews were there to do a job and a good job they did. Well done to all recipients of not just the DFCs but other awards such as MiD. BZ
.....and one incident that a highly ranking army officer thought deserving of a DFC for an RAF pilot was rejected out of hand by the RAF flight commander.
I served in both NI and Afghan......no comparison.
I served in both NI and Afghan......no comparison.