Tunisia ISIL attack on tourists

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

So the fact that neither we nor the Germans managed to win a war through carpet bombing doesn't put you off?
Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it....

Carefully targeted carpet bombing, combined with other precision bombing in a sustained campaign, does work, e.g. Gulf War.

Air Power in recent years has, almost without exception, been used piecemeal to attain highly media-oriented objectives with no long term strategic aims behind it. This includes Libya. Don't blame air power for underlying political failings.
I have never suggested air strikes on Tunisia; it would be stupid for the reasons you give. We need to stick to attacking the Caliphate. I regard IS operatives in other countries as that country's problem. Withdrawing tourist dollars should help them see that effective action is necessary.

In terms of carpet bombing in Iraq being responsible for the rise of IS, you will recall that Canada did not take part in the Invasion of Iraq, and that the UN Secretary General declared said the operation in 2003 was illegal. I think the reasons for invading Iraq and the post invasion management had far more to do with the rise of IS than any air power action within the Invasion. IS's precursor organisation formed in 2004 in direct response to the sectarian divisions arising in Iraq as a consequence of US post-invasion political management. It was nothing to do with the Invasion itself. Whether any post-Saddam political strategy could have worked is another question - arguably not, in which case Iraq shouldn't have been invaded in the first place.

[Two's in]

So, eradicating the socio-economic conditions where strapping on a suicide vest for a bunch of lunatics is preferable to the never ending struggle of daily life is not an option then? Thank god (small g) we got that option off the table quickly.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

A very fair point Two's In - leaving the enemy with no option but a fight to the death is always a bad idea. The Romans on Hadrian's Wall always sallied to attack raiders from one direction only, leaving them with the 'run away bravely' option.
As to the socio-economics, then again hope is vital. I advocate removing tourist money until IS is disabled and the situation is safe, not forever.

[West Coast]

Socio economic huh, if only OBL had a factory job assembling widgets prior to 911. Same for his number 2, you know, the doctor.

Ideology trumps employment.

Jobs for jihadis sounds great when you try to solve the issue minus addressing the root cause.

[ShotOne]

"Removing tourist money until IS is disabled..."? Nothing would be more calculated to ENable them than crumbling deserted resorts, massive unemployment and an impoverished government.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

There are no guarantees. Removing tourist revenue could result in your scenario, or the commencement of effective action against IS terrorists that I expect would be the consequence in Tunisia.

In terms of the air power aspect, I think the primary problem is the political failure to declare war, or formally refuse to do so and take the consequences thereof. A lack of a clear statement leads to highly restrictive ROE and force-sizing, and therefore ineffective action. IS in the ME is a de facto state rather than a terrorist organisation, and therefore can be attacked.

One of the biggest issues is the risk of civilian casualties, but International Law specifically forbids the placing of military assets in civilian areas (which IS and Hamas do) and therefore specifically permits the bombing of such areas where military assets have been so placed. By excluding civilian areas, it is in fact politicians who are giving in to IS terrorism, and indeed encouraging the placement of military assets among civilians as a tactic since it clearly works.
One waits to see what Hamas do next time after Israel wasn't prepared to exclude such targets during the recent conflict.

[The Old Fat One]

Tunisia, along with most of that coast, is a little bit of a dump. Can't think for the life of me why anyone would want to go there?

Interestingly when it all went off in Egypt, TUI (Germany) were giving refunds to cancellations to Germans, whilst Thomson (UK) [which, as you all know, have the same parent company] were quoting the Foreign Office and refusing to give refunds to Brits. Tiny bit random and arbitrary don't you think?

Personally, I think it's a matter of common sense and self-preservation as much as anything else.

Would I drastically change my lifestyle because of nutters who want to murder people - no chance.

Would I avoid a hotspot/high risk destination and pick somewhere else - you betcha.

I mean, I am no stranger to flying and I know the stats, but there are plenty of airlines I will never fly with.

Common sense innit.

[ShotOne]

Galloping generalisations aside, many of the resorts there have been developed to an exceptionally high standard and they have invested heavily to do so. If a boycott were to bankrupt their pro-west, IS hating govt and create a few million restless hungry unemployed, who know what would replace it? IS targetted tourism exactly for these reasons. Do we really want to help their policy?

"..waits to see what Hamas do next time" your own words, fox, highlight that Hamas were not destroyed or even disarmed by those attacks and that the one certainty is there will be a next time

[barnstormer1968]

Perhaps it may be of general help if a NATO member didn't buy bulk oil from ISIS, and stopped killing people who are fighting against ISIS.

ISIS selling oil to a NATO member is just about in the same 'idealist' fold as PIRA selling drugs to loyalists back in the day. Idealism is all well and good and it makes for great propaganda videos, but money seems to have the same effect on terrorists as it does on fat cat capitalists

[highflyer40]

The "west" also includes all of South America, South Africa and many other countries that Muslim fanatics don't seem to care about... I wonder what they are doing different... Oh yes that's it, they are minding there own business and not trying to impose their philosophies on others.

[melmothtw]

Oh yes that's it, they are minding there own business and not trying to impose their philosophies on others.

And yet when there's a natural catastrophe or some other calamity, like the Asian Tsunami or the Pakistan floods, who is that these countries all call upon to help? The West.

They can't have it both ways - either they get our 'interference' or they don't.

[highflyer40]

Are you seriously saying that humanitarian aid is reliant on the fact that a nation must bend over and accept what it gets?? You are warped

[melmothtw]

I'm saying that you can't decry the West as 'the great Satan' the one moment, and then expect it come riding to your rescue the next.

[highflyer40]

I would agree to disagree with you on this one. I think most Muslim fanatics wouldn't want the wests help in a humanitarian disaster. It is the rest of the population that requests help.. You know just like they did in reverse. I seem to remember Pakistan sent almost 5000 aid workers to Thailand after the tsunami.

[melmothtw]

I'd suggest most Muslim fanatics would believe a natural disaster to be the work of Allah, and so help would be the last thing on their minds.

I don't know Pakistan's contribution to the Tsumani relief effort, so will go with what you say. Invariably though it is the West that they call upon (it is certainly the West they blame if no help comes).

I take your point about other 'Western' countries not being affected by terrorism to the same degree (you say it's because they don't 'meddle' in ME affairs), but as the Embassy bombings in Tanzania and Kenya showed, that's no real protection unfortunately.

[melmothtw]

I'd also suggest that, with regard to the example of South America that you brought up, other factors besides foreign policy probably have a bigger part to play in their not being targeted. Factors such as proximity to Muslim lands, the lack of a Muslim population of any significant size, population demographics, the religious composition of the continent, regional history, etc.

[highflyer40]

Well it is really. As this meddling has been going on since the 50's/60's.

I would love to see allterrorist/extremists eliminated, but we also live in the real world and that is just impossible.

I just think a new way of trying things would probably work, not right away but after a few years they would go on with their internal fighting and forgot about the west. Just like they have never been bothered with South America, which lets face it is the most western religious continent in existence

[melmothtw]

Just like they have never been bothered with South America, which lets face it is the most western religious continent in existence

See my post above. I think there are far more relevant reasons that have nothing to do with foreign policy as to why South America has not been caught up in this current conflagration.

[Heathrow Harry]

"The "west" also includes all of South America, South Africa and many other countries that Muslim fanatics don't seem to care about.."

these wouldn't be the fanatics who bombed the Jewish Centre in Buenos Aires that killed 85 people and is causing Mrs Kirchner so many problems then......