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BBC Series - Fighter Pilots

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BBC Series - Fighter Pilots

Old 22nd Oct 2015, 23:33
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ken Scott
The 'system' also made 120 pilots, some already with their wings, across the whole of FT redundant then a few years later invited them to come back in as the RAF needed them. Rather amazingly after such a lesson in loyalty a few accepted. I would suggest that the 'system' is even less able to predict its needs than you suggest!
You may recall that the training system was already struggling with asset availability and some very difficult "pipeline" issues at that time. More importantly, this followed SDSR. Just from the fast jet perspective, the entire Harrier Force had recently been axed, the Tornado Force was reduced and the Typhoon buy stalled. The backlog would have been unsustainable.

Happy to explain further if it would help.
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Old 23rd Oct 2015, 11:36
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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Pr00ne. No he was more the quiet Jeremy Corbyn type. Now that was 3 quid well spent.
Odanrot,

I wouldn't court providence over your 3 sheckels just yet, all you've done thus far is help Groucho Marx (I just can't think of him any other way after his turn out in that ill-fitting garb at the state munch the other night) along one more step to becoming Prime Minister and.... who knows, perhaps Diane Abbot could end up as Defence Secretary once he's got the keys to No. 10. It could happen, a lesson we should all have hoisted aboard given the curious twists, turns and surprises served up from the Great British electorate recently.

pr00ne,

Jeremy Groucho Corbyn Marx, is the same nice person who described those who from H.M. Forces participated in the Falklands War as 'unemployed men' at the time. Whatever your mindset regarding warfare and the justification for it on each occasion, this was a most telling comment from a man who presumes to accept the office, one day, which accepts the defence and security of the United Kingdom and its citizens/subjects at home and abroad as the first duty. It will be interesting to see if he feels it appropriate to rely on any number of 'unemployed men' in order to maintain this.

FB
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Old 23rd Oct 2015, 11:43
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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On a Sqn by age 20 - you have to be joking of course. Son of a friend has spent the last 5 years, holding, flying training, holding, Valley, holding, holding, scuba diving, climbing, yachting, leave, holding, waiting to go to Sqn only now! Already planning BA application!
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Old 23rd Oct 2015, 11:57
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Already planning BA application? Thought that was the norm now before even going to the careers office.
Sign your life away for 12 years hence and a couple of thousand flying hours to either BA or Beardy Branson. They get semi trained starboard observers and you get a half pension and a job post RAF without having to lift a finger.
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Old 23rd Oct 2015, 12:43
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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Already planning BA application? Thought that was the norm now before even going to the careers office.
Sign your life away for 12 years hence and a couple of thousand flying hours to either BA or Beardy Branson. They get semi trained starboard observers and you get a half pension and a job post RAF without having to lift a finger.
RAF take on that:

Already planning to cut them loose after 12 years with nothing but a preserved pension? That's our plan isn't it? After all, we don't really have the resources or the leadership to offer 'careers' any more, do we? We'll save a tonne of dosh on lower pensions which the boys and girls can top up with Serco or the airlines. Hardly need to lift a finger. Result! Wars- oh we can manage the odd skirmish- the Airships assure us we can.

CG
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Old 23rd Oct 2015, 14:09
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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Dream Sheet

Tlightb
Whatever happened to "1st choice, Astronaut, Stockton-On-Tees"
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Old 23rd Oct 2015, 15:55
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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Dream Sheet.

Brilliant memory D. It was actually Stoke-on-Trent. Didn't make it, went to work in New York instead.
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Old 23rd Oct 2015, 16:40
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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1.3V Stall,

Five "O" Levels, including Maths and English, and a bit of hand-to-eye co-ordination at OASC at the age of 18, was the sole foundation to climb the greasy pole and ultimately run the air force.

And that's where the RAF is: fecked'
I think that you will find out if you look through the records that many of those with 5 O levels went on to become Exceptional Aviators. It was left to those who went to Sleaford Tech and did minimal flying go on become the leaders of the 90s, 00s and 10s.

Very few Direct Entrants ever had aspirations to become Air Ranked Officers. Most would have been content to become a Squadron Commander and/or leave for pastures new.
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Old 23rd Oct 2015, 17:27
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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Finningly Boy.

Firstly, I obviously have more confidence in the British electorate than do you, although probably not much. Secondly, rather than putting JC in No 10 and totally destroying the whole country, we may have prevented one of the other clowns standing for the leadership creeping in if DC and his mates screw up, which they undoubtedly will.

Dominator 2.

Spot on! I was DE with the required "5" then got PC on promotion, climbed well up the greasy pole, banked 5000 hrs (not 1 in an aeroplane with either a toilet or cooker) and left for pastures new with a reasonable pension and my integrity intact.
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Old 23rd Oct 2015, 19:34
  #70 (permalink)  
 
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SamXXV - how "south", how "west"?
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Old 23rd Oct 2015, 19:47
  #71 (permalink)  
 
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Courtenay: that the training system was struggling for capacity is indicative of how it has been run down in recent years. That too many pilots, many of who were close to completing their lengthy & expensive training, were let go is shown by there being insufficient to man current & planned fleets let alone if there is a P8 buy in SDSR. There is also a lack of QFIs at OCU level on the ME fleets because the UASs, which traditionally were where ME QFIs were trained, are now manned mostly by a (small) number of FTRS instructors. This will only get worse once MFTS comes in. It can't all be blamed on the last SDSR & politicians.
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Old 23rd Oct 2015, 19:56
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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Ken Scott, much as I predicted 12 years ago....

And who will replace the ageing FTRS UAS QFIs......

Classic short termism - whichever fools were responsible should hang their heads in everlasting shame. But they won't, of course.....
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Old 24th Oct 2015, 08:34
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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Back on topic, sort of, getting a degree and then going to work as a milkman hardly stamps you as someone dying to fly fast jets does it?

And I fully expect flak for that sentence.
At least he was prepared to work any job to pay his way! Which is far better than many graduates who leave and expect a job in the field they studied, because they have a sense of entitlement.

Sorry if that makes me a "foaming at the mouth right-wing type."
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Old 24th Oct 2015, 10:49
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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1.3 wrote

M2 - and that was the problem that has led us to where we are.

Five "O" Levels, including Maths and English, and a bit of hand-to-eye co-ordination at OASC at the age of 18, was the sole foundation to climb the greasy pole and ultimately run the air force.

And that's where the RAF is: fecked'
Quite possibly the most offensive and arrogant post I have ever read on this forum

Are you saying that he entire RAF training system is based on 'a bit of hand-to-eye co-ordination'?

I've worked with plenty of people with degrees that don't know their arse from their elbow.
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Old 24th Oct 2015, 11:33
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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"I've worked with plenty of people with degrees that don't know their arse from their elbow."

That's why they gave them their own brevet!
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Old 24th Oct 2015, 14:06
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ken Scott
There is also a lack of QFIs at OCU level on the ME fleets because the UASs, which traditionally were where ME QFIs were trained, are now manned mostly by a (small) number of FTRS instructors. This will only get worse once MFTS comes in.
Indeed, the RAF's traditional QFI nursery is now full of reservists and civvies; we always said this would cause a problem, but who listened?

As for SDSR, no, of course is wasn't the only issue, but it was probably the final straw. Before that, the training system also suffered from various reorganisations that failed to streamline the pipeline. Things became steadily worse as we went from BFTS(s) + AFTS + TWU(s) to Mirror Image to Valley, with some EFTS stuff thrown in. Every change seemed to live up to expectations by progressively degrading a formerly working system.

By around 2005, the PTC guys were working flat out just to keep things moving, but struggling even to break even. Contractorized eng support at Valley was good enough, but lacked the flexibility to allow them to catch up. So things just steadily got worse. They even tried reducing the syllabi, but that just transferred risk to the OCUs (and eventually to the front line) where we could least afford it. The Harrier guys were having serious IPS issues, which were then compounded when the big push came to build up the Typhoon Force; the later delays in that programme meant that the Typhoon OCU had to have the pick of the crop because just one student lost at OCU would have caused the planned stand-up to fail. Politics could not allow that to happen, apparently.
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Old 24th Oct 2015, 14:32
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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The future for flying training in the RAF (and other services) does indeed look rather bleak. With MFTS presumably intending to employ mostly ex-mil instructors but the RAF not training so many once it no longer has need where will Ascent find its people in the future? If the RAF is going to bolster MFTS with its own QFIs where is the saving from contractorization going to come when Ascent will be utilising our airfields? Paying a third party to lease ac on our behalf cannot be cheaper than leasing them ourselves once profit margin is taken into account.

I'm left with the feeling that the sole purpose of MFTS is to provide SOs with employment once they retire.

When I joined up we prided ourselves that although our equipment might not be as good as the Spams ('all the gear, no idea') our training system & our crews were first class. Whether that was ever true is open to debate but we certainly cannot claim that our training is the best nor will it be under MFTS. I'm not convinced it will even be value for money & once we can no longer provide our own training .....? Perhaps the expectation is that it will all be RPAS by then so we needn't worry but the Duncan Sandys' School of Prophecy has been wrong before.
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Old 24th Oct 2015, 19:08
  #78 (permalink)  
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We used to sell training to overseas air forces. Now that a contractor is delivering the training, time to cut out the agent and contract with the contractor directly.
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Old 24th Oct 2015, 19:14
  #79 (permalink)  
 
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There is also a lack of QFIs at OCU level on the ME fleets because the UASs, which traditionally were where ME QFIs were trained
I am curious about the perception of a requirement for type-conversion staff to be also qualified and experienced in elementary flying instruction. EASA specify separate qualifications for these disciplines (FI and TRI). Whilst there is certainly some common ground in core instructional skills, there are equally many aspects that are not at all similar.

I think most of the audience here have a good grasp of how elementary instruction is delivered, but there are perhaps fewer that appreciate how modern multi-engine pilot conversion is achieved. Students are taught in pairs in a flight simulator; there is no "demo" or "follow-me through" teaching, unless the student does not achieve competence. The on-aircraft training is (or should) be no-more than a validation of skills acquired in the FSTD. A background in elementary flying instruction may well be useful, but isn't a pre-requisite for successful delivery of a type-conversion training.
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Old 24th Oct 2015, 21:20
  #80 (permalink)  
 
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I don't think that is the case, Brian. It's just that the FTSs used to be a fantastic source of QFIs for the OCUs and Front Line Sqns. QFIs that had a good background in instruction.

Now, the other side of the coin - you know I can only talk about mil FJ training. When moving to the F-15, I did a 3 month TX (short conversion course) followed by a 3 month instructor upgrade after which I taught ab initio students everything from trip one in the jet to AAR to combat to IF to... You get the idea. And I am not, nor ever have been, a QFI. The system seems to work. The snag for the RAF is that CFS still insists that only QFIs can do certain sorties, but there is no longer the capacity to produce them. So therein lies the problem; a system that requires something that the system can no longer produce in sufficient numbers.
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