Archbishop apologises for Dresden bombings
Chugalug2, Very good post. I laud Chuchill as a war leader but share your distaste for his political manoeuvering after the war.
Nevertheless, we must remember that, following WW2, the threat changed and we needed Germany onside. Operation Unthinkable proposed 100,000 Wermacht troops fighting alongside the Allies against Russian forces.
We rapidly needed to be seen as 'the good guys'.
In the immediate aftermath of WW2 things were not great for Germans. I recollect an uncle castigating my young cousin for refusing to eat, saying that he'd seen people starving in Germany.
Nevertheless, we must remember that, following WW2, the threat changed and we needed Germany onside. Operation Unthinkable proposed 100,000 Wermacht troops fighting alongside the Allies against Russian forces.
We rapidly needed to be seen as 'the good guys'.
In the immediate aftermath of WW2 things were not great for Germans. I recollect an uncle castigating my young cousin for refusing to eat, saying that he'd seen people starving in Germany.
The International Court of Justice gave an advisory opinion in July 1996 on the Legality of the Threat Or Use Of Nuclear Weapons. The court ruled that "[t]here is in neither customary nor international law any comprehensive and universal prohibition of the threat or use of nuclear weapons." However, by a split vote, it also found that "[t]he threat or use of nuclear weapons would generally be contrary to the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict." The Court stated that it could not definitively conclude whether the threat or use of nuclear weapons would be lawful or unlawful in an extreme circumstance of self-defense, in which the very survival of the state would be at stake.
Thus, I think Dresden would still be legal today.
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It's a pity the commentators who attack Welby don't read for themselves what he actually said. He did not apologise and he did mention what the Luftwaffe did to London and Coventry. This is a typical distorted DM headline that just stirs up trouble, which is what journalism seems to be about these days. Read what Welby really said, which was balanced and reasonable.
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Seconded that Genstabler and Mal Drop. Unlike anybody on the Daily Mail it appears, and unfortunately a lot of those who have posted on here, I actually listened to the Archbishop, and noted that he carefully did not apologise for the bombing, and has subsequently made that clear in the light of ill-judged criticism of his words. Certainly reference to it as a horrific event is not a statement that can be argued with, any more than the description of hundreds of other incidents during the war. War is horrific, acknowledgement of the fact does not involve ascribing blame or apologising.
Personally I think it is nonsense to apologise for events for which you were not responsible. Since nobody is left alive who was in a position of responsibiilty in any of the participating nations, nobody can be expected to take it upon themselves to apologise for Dresden, Coventry, Hiroshima, the Burma Railway or anything else.
Personally I think it is nonsense to apologise for events for which you were not responsible. Since nobody is left alive who was in a position of responsibiilty in any of the participating nations, nobody can be expected to take it upon themselves to apologise for Dresden, Coventry, Hiroshima, the Burma Railway or anything else.
From what I understand, Dresden suffered a 'perfect storm' on the night with the cloud opening up over the city as the bombers arrived. This allowed all the bombers to see and find the target, something that was not usually the case for most night raids and so the city took the full force of all the bombs.
I stayed in Dresden one night, right next to the cathedral. The re-building from the ruins is quite impressive, as was the support from around the world that helped fund it.
I stayed in Dresden one night, right next to the cathedral. The re-building from the ruins is quite impressive, as was the support from around the world that helped fund it.
It's a pity the commentators who attack Welby don't read for themselves what he actually said.
Getting back to general means comment; we are not nice people with whom to go to war. If we were, we'd have all been killed millennia ago.
Someone said, on another thread, that, were we all vegetarians, we would live a peaceful life. Not so; we'd fight over the vegetables.
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Like Tankertrash I can't get excited about all these "apologies"
the only people who can apologise for ANY act are those who carried it out (or ordered it or facilitated it)
anyone else can only say how much they dislike what was done
it's time to put this passion for apologising about history back in the box
the important thing is
A. Not to forget
B. Don't do it again
the only people who can apologise for ANY act are those who carried it out (or ordered it or facilitated it)
anyone else can only say how much they dislike what was done
it's time to put this passion for apologising about history back in the box
the important thing is
A. Not to forget
B. Don't do it again
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Why no mention of the Hamburg raid in the summer of 1943 when more people were killed?
Why no mention of the USAAF who also attacked Dresden during the day?
Personally as an "After the War" kid I am just very grateful for the sacrifice of the young men of RAF Bomber Command in securing my future, a fact I shall commemorate later next month when I lay a wreath at the site of RAF Snaith in East Yorkshire on the 71st Anniversary of the Nuremburg Raid when RAF Bomber Command lost 108 heavy bombers in one night, each aircraft carried 7 young men who were the flower of the youth of Britain and her Commonwealth.
They truly were "The Greatest Generation" and I for one am very grateful for their passing.
Why no mention of the USAAF who also attacked Dresden during the day?
Personally as an "After the War" kid I am just very grateful for the sacrifice of the young men of RAF Bomber Command in securing my future, a fact I shall commemorate later next month when I lay a wreath at the site of RAF Snaith in East Yorkshire on the 71st Anniversary of the Nuremburg Raid when RAF Bomber Command lost 108 heavy bombers in one night, each aircraft carried 7 young men who were the flower of the youth of Britain and her Commonwealth.
They truly were "The Greatest Generation" and I for one am very grateful for their passing.
I was only an Erk during my time in service, never rising to the cerebral ranks of Commisioned life. I honestly believe that whatever the members of our armed forces did during WW2, was necessary for the good of the whole of Europe. We, the British, owe a lot to our friends from Australia, New Zealand, Canada, South Africa and many more allies who flocked to our shores to stop the Nazi threat. It seems that the "guilt complex" is easily worn by modern political thinkers, like Blair and others, often quick to apologise on our behalf, for actions taken by our forbears. Not in my name I say, compared with the blitzkrieg inflicted on Warsaw, Civentry, Liverpool and other cities across Europe by the Germans, the "whirlwind" that they ultimately reaped was fitting and proportional. I really suspect though that current "forelock tugging" is designed to gain favour with the National Socialist EU, rather than apportion blame where it truly lies.
Smudge
Smudge
Originally Posted by Pali
A comparison with Trafalgar is not very precise one - can you imagine Navy shooting at passenger ship knowing that they are sinking mostly civilians?
A comparison with Trafalgar is not very precise one - can you imagine Navy shooting at passenger ship knowing that they are sinking mostly civilians?
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But let's talk about Dresden bombing. Interesting thing is that both sides of conflict overrated the impact of such raids. Hitler thought that with the "Blitz" he would put inhabitants of London into panic who would flee from the city and put the production of London industry into halt. Also psychologists in England thought the same but nevertheless we know that opposite was true. Brave nation stood tall and it was impossible to break the will of Londoners.
But the same is valid to Germans. Inhabitants of bombed cities suffered the hell of bombing but their readiness to continue to live there and work never ceased. I've studied quite a lot about the subject and although German cities turned to rubble the industrial production under Albert Speer raised into the late 1944. The belief of Bomber command was simply wrong. It was unable to destroy German industry by bombing raids aimed at factories nor by killing workers and wiping out their homes. Though there were shortages (the most important effect impeding Nazi regime was lack of fuel after raids at Ploesti, Schwechat and Leuna) it is rather surprising to watch how Germany kept their production intact so long.
It must be very sobering for anybody involved to realise that bombing raids with intention to spread terror into civilian inhabitants missed the declared goal. In this respect it was unnecessary and sort of dark spot in the history of war.
However in all the fairness this raids helped to end the war in a way which was not considered in the beginning. Luftwaffe was desperate to stop allied heavy bombers and in attempt to do it they lost too many pilots and their fighter squadrons were bitterly decimated. Though they were able to build aircrafts to the very end there was lack of trained pilots and due the lack of fuel their training was more than insufficient.
Look at the German opposition in the air during the D-day and to the very end of war. Where were all the fighters gone? They were lost in an futile attempt to defend Reich and shoot down the bombers. Bomber Harris was wrong and his strategy to cut the industrial production and make workers flee from cities didn't work as expected. But the campaign knocked down Luftwaffe's resources up to the point when it became a marginal force. Another important issue was air defence (FLAK). Imagine the amount of resources needed to defend German cities...
It may be bitter to recognise that to attack civilians and cause so much suffering was merely ineffective. I feel the same, there were many countrymen of mine in RAF too.
I spoke to a friend of mine - German mountaineer I used to climb with near Dresden who was 12 years boy at the time of the raid and who spent the fateful night in a deep basement in the centre of the city. In about 1987 when I raised the topic he was unable to talk about it. Even if he tried. Then he started to speak about the moment when they finally could get out to the streets and he stopped to talk again. I looked into his face and saw something I didn't see ever and I didn't insist anymore. No, it is not the best thing for a bombing crew to think about this. Crew members were heroes who did their duty and died in attempt to win the war. I am not sure if I would use the same words for all the top rank commanders and politicians but this is completely different issue.
I am not trying to blame anybody nor I am liberal pacifist. I think it was a different world in 1940's. Also I am quite sure that an attempt to use the same strategy in a war today would end up in Hague.
World is not black or white. I am silently remembering young men who died when defending their country but allow me to give a long thought to people who died in Dresden that night. You may fight the worst evil but in doing so you better don't lose the values of being human.
And one final thought I seldom see in discussions like this. Some German units ended in Russian hands just due Dresden raid which paralysed the whole area and stopped the transports which headed to the west in order to end in American hands. I've read heartbreaking stories about desperate attempts of Germans to avoid Russian captivity. Why? Most of POWs went to gulags and majority of them died there and came back 8-10 years after the war. Read the story of Erich Hartmann and you will understand better. Add few thousands of dead German soldiers in Russian gulags to the victims of Dresden raid.
I know this has been said before and, in a small way, I'm sorry to have to say this.
Seventy years after the event it is all too easy to draw on the luxury of a lot of time and 20/20 (6/6) hindsight. It's also all too easy to forget or not understand just badly Britain's back was to the wall.
I know a lot of folk here have been talking about "they started it", but that isn't really right. Neither the War nor the bombing of cities. But Britain's leadership, including that of the RAF, were simply doing the only things they could in order not to be overrun by the worst and cruelest regime for centuries.
Question them all you like after all this time. But you might be careful about pointing fingers, at least before you're sure you completely understand and consider all the issues Britain and her leaders were facing.
Seventy years after the event it is all too easy to draw on the luxury of a lot of time and 20/20 (6/6) hindsight. It's also all too easy to forget or not understand just badly Britain's back was to the wall.
I know a lot of folk here have been talking about "they started it", but that isn't really right. Neither the War nor the bombing of cities. But Britain's leadership, including that of the RAF, were simply doing the only things they could in order not to be overrun by the worst and cruelest regime for centuries.
Question them all you like after all this time. But you might be careful about pointing fingers, at least before you're sure you completely understand and consider all the issues Britain and her leaders were facing.
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Pali,
Good post. I would counter your point about PoW transport, in allied eyes it also prevented a freedom of movement which would have re-enforced german front lines.
The difference today of course is that although Harris was unable to prevent the growth of industry in Germany then, today with modern capability its unlikely the same would be true in an environment of air superiority or supremacy.
Good post. I would counter your point about PoW transport, in allied eyes it also prevented a freedom of movement which would have re-enforced german front lines.
The difference today of course is that although Harris was unable to prevent the growth of industry in Germany then, today with modern capability its unlikely the same would be true in an environment of air superiority or supremacy.
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
So is the lesson here is don't try to rewrite history - it is what it is - but if you do, consider the Daily Mail as a first rate example of Nazi propoganda?
Pali, thank you for such a thoughtful and considered post. You make a number of good points, not the least of which was the absence of the Luftwaffe over the D-Day beaches because they were defending the skies over Germany or resisting the Soviets in the east. I would suggest that was an effect that was very much in the minds of the senior commanders with which you have such reservations.
Eisenhower was able to reassure those facing the fearful odds of storming a well defended coast that any aircraft that they saw or heard would be ours. Even with such Air Superiority it was a close run thing. If they had been repelled who knows if and when another invasion would be attempted? The Liberation of Europe might then have been completed by the Red Army. In which case the entire population, military and civilian, Axis or subjugated, would have suffered the terrible fate that you so movingly relate in your final paragraph.
Of course there was terrible suffering in Germany, as there was in Poland, Russia, Holland, Britain, and everywhere else that fell under the dark shadow of WWII. Since then there has been continual suffering in further wars, up to and including the present. The concept, if it were ever true, that somehow the civilian populations should be spared the carnage of the battlefield, was certainly debunked well before Dresden, just as it is in the cities of East Ukraine. The only way to prevent it is to prevent war itself.
There is the rub. We know what doesn't prevent war; ladies with wire cutters outside NATO bases, United Nations resolutions, German Chancellors bearing papers promising peace in our time. The problem is we don't really know what does prevent it, other than to carry a big stick and speak softly. As an old Cold War warrior I found that to be quite effective, but that doesn't fit in with the world of today it seems.
Eisenhower was able to reassure those facing the fearful odds of storming a well defended coast that any aircraft that they saw or heard would be ours. Even with such Air Superiority it was a close run thing. If they had been repelled who knows if and when another invasion would be attempted? The Liberation of Europe might then have been completed by the Red Army. In which case the entire population, military and civilian, Axis or subjugated, would have suffered the terrible fate that you so movingly relate in your final paragraph.
Of course there was terrible suffering in Germany, as there was in Poland, Russia, Holland, Britain, and everywhere else that fell under the dark shadow of WWII. Since then there has been continual suffering in further wars, up to and including the present. The concept, if it were ever true, that somehow the civilian populations should be spared the carnage of the battlefield, was certainly debunked well before Dresden, just as it is in the cities of East Ukraine. The only way to prevent it is to prevent war itself.
There is the rub. We know what doesn't prevent war; ladies with wire cutters outside NATO bases, United Nations resolutions, German Chancellors bearing papers promising peace in our time. The problem is we don't really know what does prevent it, other than to carry a big stick and speak softly. As an old Cold War warrior I found that to be quite effective, but that doesn't fit in with the world of today it seems.
We have paid war reparations twice and now the Germans still rule Europe! How the hell can we be having this conversation after what they did in WW2?
The raid on Dresden was just one of the raids which achieved a result!
Forget all the fluffy rhetoric about war crimes etc.
This was a result!
Move on and by all means remember those who suffered but do not turn this anniversary into a crusade for the Nazi Party!
The raid on Dresden was just one of the raids which achieved a result!
Forget all the fluffy rhetoric about war crimes etc.
This was a result!
Move on and by all means remember those who suffered but do not turn this anniversary into a crusade for the Nazi Party!
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Regret at the killing of so many civilians? Yes
Pride that the Allies were able to destroy the Nazi regime? Again yes
Two different arguments.
Pride that the Allies were able to destroy the Nazi regime? Again yes
Two different arguments.