SDSR 15
Whilst I don't agree with kitbag that there's no appetite to reconstitute the MPA capability, especially in light of the very embarrassing public exposure of our capability gaps, I do think the point about lack of space on our remaining few operational airfields is very valid.
It's for that reason, combined with the general apathy towards Defence in general and defence depending in particular, that makes me think the politicians will try to do it on the cheap by re-rolling or developing existing capabilities to bolt on the MPA function. I could easily see any of Reaper, Sentinel or Shadow being tweaked to fulfil a basic FIND function, which no doubt would be acceptable to the politicians and enable them to say they were doing something about it, as well as being championed by the platform desks keen to preserve or grow their own bit of capability.
It wouldn't mean a huge infra bill as they look for somewhere to park new platforms, sqns, hangars and msn spt and could probably be done quicker than buying even off the shelf. The seed corn crews could be brought back and integrated into the existing sqns as the Maritime Flt of a MMA capability. Plus, any political uncertainty following the next election that will potentially hit the economy hard, as will a down turn in the 'recovery'. Don't forget, the 'recovery' has been in play for longer than most economic cycles and the commentators are already starting to look out for the next downturn which will likely limit defence spending even further.
All speculation on my part, and I hope I'm wrong and we do it properly first time round. I just can't see it happening with so many other competing demands and a Treasury that doesn't give a damn about the military and defence of the nation.
It's for that reason, combined with the general apathy towards Defence in general and defence depending in particular, that makes me think the politicians will try to do it on the cheap by re-rolling or developing existing capabilities to bolt on the MPA function. I could easily see any of Reaper, Sentinel or Shadow being tweaked to fulfil a basic FIND function, which no doubt would be acceptable to the politicians and enable them to say they were doing something about it, as well as being championed by the platform desks keen to preserve or grow their own bit of capability.
It wouldn't mean a huge infra bill as they look for somewhere to park new platforms, sqns, hangars and msn spt and could probably be done quicker than buying even off the shelf. The seed corn crews could be brought back and integrated into the existing sqns as the Maritime Flt of a MMA capability. Plus, any political uncertainty following the next election that will potentially hit the economy hard, as will a down turn in the 'recovery'. Don't forget, the 'recovery' has been in play for longer than most economic cycles and the commentators are already starting to look out for the next downturn which will likely limit defence spending even further.
All speculation on my part, and I hope I'm wrong and we do it properly first time round. I just can't see it happening with so many other competing demands and a Treasury that doesn't give a damn about the military and defence of the nation.
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Bastardeux I think in the long term, as you grow up, you'll find cynicism wins out over naive optimism.
Not retired, still serving, yes I read the papers, so which caused more furore; the boat or the bombers? which is most recent in the public memory?
FWIW I believe we should regain the MPA capability, I think though that when DC,DM, NC or even NFor NB get told we MUST have it they're all going to say 'we managed for the last 5 years without it, why should I find an extra £2B or whatever?'
Total non starter.
BTW, Melchett, I guess from your comments re infra you haven't really met the brick wall that is the DIO?
Not retired, still serving, yes I read the papers, so which caused more furore; the boat or the bombers? which is most recent in the public memory?
FWIW I believe we should regain the MPA capability, I think though that when DC,DM, NC or even NFor NB get told we MUST have it they're all going to say 'we managed for the last 5 years without it, why should I find an extra £2B or whatever?'
Total non starter.
BTW, Melchett, I guess from your comments re infra you haven't really met the brick wall that is the DIO?
Kitbag, I have - hence my comment.
Rather than having to go to DIO to convert or build new MPA sqn and msn spt buildings, extend messes etc, my point was that re-rolling an existing sqn into an MMA / MPA capability might be the best way of avoiding the buggeration and heartache of getting DIO involved if the buildings already existed.
Rather than having to go to DIO to convert or build new MPA sqn and msn spt buildings, extend messes etc, my point was that re-rolling an existing sqn into an MMA / MPA capability might be the best way of avoiding the buggeration and heartache of getting DIO involved if the buildings already existed.
Britain is becoming a friend who can't be trusted, says top US general
Well there's no sitting on the fence by Gen Odierno with those remarks is there.
Britain is becoming a friend who can't be trusted, says top US general - Telegraph
I wonder if anybody in Whitehall will take note? Probably not, too busy working out how much they can claim in allowances when they lose their seat at the election, or how they can use their position to drum up a second salary.
I'd suggest that what we really need is some sort of embarrassing defeat or loss of face to make them realise how bad things are, but we've tried that already with Iraq and Afghanistan, swiftly followed by letting Russian subs amble about the coast whilst ignoring Ukraine, and generating so few jets for Baltic policing and Shader that I'm sure I've got digits to spare when counting them. None of that catalogue of national disgrace seems to have done anymore than raise a ripple in the PM's morning coffee.
Britain is becoming a friend who can't be trusted, says top US general - Telegraph
I wonder if anybody in Whitehall will take note? Probably not, too busy working out how much they can claim in allowances when they lose their seat at the election, or how they can use their position to drum up a second salary.
I'd suggest that what we really need is some sort of embarrassing defeat or loss of face to make them realise how bad things are, but we've tried that already with Iraq and Afghanistan, swiftly followed by letting Russian subs amble about the coast whilst ignoring Ukraine, and generating so few jets for Baltic policing and Shader that I'm sure I've got digits to spare when counting them. None of that catalogue of national disgrace seems to have done anymore than raise a ripple in the PM's morning coffee.
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SDSR 15
Spare me the bullsh*t...the level of cynisism from some of the retired-turned armchair generals on this forum is physically draining.
Would certainly agree there is a lot of apathy out there on the forum...
Folks look is what happening.... a Cold War is enveloping again...!!! Recent events, well the warm up!
MPA is essential and despite what others may say it's coming back in one form or another, probably hurried along by the above.
Would certainly agree there is a lot of apathy out there on the forum...
Folks look is what happening.... a Cold War is enveloping again...!!! Recent events, well the warm up!
MPA is essential and despite what others may say it's coming back in one form or another, probably hurried along by the above.
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when DC,DM, NC or even NFor NB get told we MUST have it they're all going to say 'we managed for the last 5 years without it, why should I find an extra £2B or whatever?'
The rusi estimates that in the now-not-unfathomable situation the uk commits to 2% of GDP defence spending, there will be £75 billion more to spend over the coming decade than current planning assumptions of a 1% increase pa on equipment. How a MPA wouldn't be top of the list is incomprehensible to me.
There is still some time to go until the election, but so far pre election statements from politicians seem to include:
Freezing energy bills for 18 months.
Reducing tuition fees
Creating/guaranteeing apprenticeship places
Building 200,000/300,000/??? houses a year
A mansion tax
Immigration
Increasing personal tax thresholds
Deficit reductions
Protecting NHS and education spending
etc
etc
But no real mention of defence, in fact all I have seen was a comment on building the new Type 26 frigates, which is pretty much business as usual, and a couple of parties who are very anti a Trident replacement.
At the moment, DEFENCE DOESN'T APPEAR TO BE AN ISSUE IN THIS ELECTION.
Standing by to be corrected - hopefully politely please!
Freezing energy bills for 18 months.
Reducing tuition fees
Creating/guaranteeing apprenticeship places
Building 200,000/300,000/??? houses a year
A mansion tax
Immigration
Increasing personal tax thresholds
Deficit reductions
Protecting NHS and education spending
etc
etc
But no real mention of defence, in fact all I have seen was a comment on building the new Type 26 frigates, which is pretty much business as usual, and a couple of parties who are very anti a Trident replacement.
At the moment, DEFENCE DOESN'T APPEAR TO BE AN ISSUE IN THIS ELECTION.
Standing by to be corrected - hopefully politely please!
Nope, Defence isn't an issue. See this thread.
http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/5552...nt-matter.html
Pulse1
http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/5552...nt-matter.html
I have just been sent a questionnaire by David Cameron. It asks me what matters most to me and my family and what I think matters most to the country as a whole.
It lists 17 issues, from Affordable Housing to Welfare Fraud, and asks for my top 3. There is absolutely no mention of defence.
It lists 17 issues, from Affordable Housing to Welfare Fraud, and asks for my top 3. There is absolutely no mention of defence.
There are some signs that defence is nudging its way onto the agenda in the face of world events, but the govt is desperate for it to stay off it. For example:
David Cameron gags Top Brass | News | The Guardian [/URL]
David Cameron gags Top Brass | News | The Guardian [/URL]
Culdrose is slowly getting depopulated with aircraft. Once the Sea King finally goes there will be two very new and shiny hangars and squadron HQs empty, which will probably be filled with the rest of the Merlin force. This will leave B site empty.
Not sure of the runway lengths for P-8 or P-1 ops, but I've seen A320s, Nimrods and Globemasters all happily using it.
Not sure of the runway lengths for P-8 or P-1 ops, but I've seen A320s, Nimrods and Globemasters all happily using it.
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have just been sent a questionnaire by David Cameron. It asks me what matters most to me and my family and what I think matters most to the country as a whole.
It lists 17 issues, from Affordable Housing to Welfare Fraud, and asks for my top 3. There is absolutely no mention of defence.
It lists 17 issues, from Affordable Housing to Welfare Fraud, and asks for my top 3. There is absolutely no mention of defence.
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I'm sceptical as to how long he can last without coming to some sort of decision; good or bad...the majority of his backbenchers, POTUS, USCoS, defence select committee, NATO, CoDS etc, US Secretary of State, and the governments of every Baltic nation are applying pressure and waiting to hear the immediate direction of UK defence policy. Not to mention those interested in our long term defence posture. IMHO, this is a critical juncture in British history; does the UK choose to step back from world affairs comprehensively, or do we choose to take an active role (with appropriate funding!!!)?
However, to the best of my knowledge, the opposition, and other political parties, aren't using this issue to "attack" the government over. I'm not aware of Milliband making any political capital out of this, or any promises of something different under a future Labour government - which would indicate to me that they aren't very bothered about it.
Is my view as stated above correct, or have I just missed something?
Is my view as stated above correct, or have I just missed something?
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http://www.pprune.org/military-aviat...ml#post8856739
Defence is not on the election radar (see similar post linked above). Some recent pronouncements seem to be attempts to make it so, but the public is not engaged, and judging by DC's dismissal, he does not want it to become so lest it distract him from winning votes by other means. More strong lobbying is sorely needed to highlight the extent to which we are being left exposed, and to try and engage the public.
I will attend a small local meeting with our (near-certain) new Conservative MP in a couple of weeks and will raise the issue, but don't really expect any support from other attendees who are likely to be concentrating on other day-to-day trials and tribulations. Frankly I expect I will be urinating directly into a strong headwind and my small voice will have no effect whatsoever, but hopefully there are more powerful voices who will speak up for doing the right thing and putting their country before self-interest.
LF
Defence is not on the election radar (see similar post linked above). Some recent pronouncements seem to be attempts to make it so, but the public is not engaged, and judging by DC's dismissal, he does not want it to become so lest it distract him from winning votes by other means. More strong lobbying is sorely needed to highlight the extent to which we are being left exposed, and to try and engage the public.
I will attend a small local meeting with our (near-certain) new Conservative MP in a couple of weeks and will raise the issue, but don't really expect any support from other attendees who are likely to be concentrating on other day-to-day trials and tribulations. Frankly I expect I will be urinating directly into a strong headwind and my small voice will have no effect whatsoever, but hopefully there are more powerful voices who will speak up for doing the right thing and putting their country before self-interest.
LF
Has anybody else noticed that the line that has traditionally been trotted out by Cameron et al, namely that we have the fourth largest defence budget in the world, has been strangely absent of late?
Maybe it has something to do with this slipped in the middle of the BBC report:
Interesting. Very interesting, care to elaborate Mr Cameron?
As for:
Well how many strikes have we done in Syria? Ah that's right, none. We've just left that half of the problem to the other nations in the Coalition who are bombing Syria. Bit disingenuous to only consider the part of the problem that fits the narrative that all is fine eh?
And how do we stack up against say, ooh, the French? With their aircraft carrier now on station in the Gulf on top of their Mirages in Jordan. And their 816 troops in Lebanon which is also teetering on the brink right now, alongside a similar training mission to our own in Iraq. And somehow, they've also managed to find time to get involved in Ukrainian negotiations. And I won't even begin to look at how many troops they still have scattered across the map in Africa countering extremists there.
Maybe people are right, maybe they really don't give a damn about defence. Their bluster and BS at least used to be credible at one point, rather than being able to be pulled apart in 5 minutes. And to think it all started so promisingly with the announcement of a strategic review and the creation of a National Security Council. Wonder what their last big decision was - custard creams or bourbons?
Maybe it has something to do with this slipped in the middle of the BBC report:
Speaking at a campaign event in Colchester, the prime minister said the UK's defence budget was the fifthlargest in the world and second only to the US in the Nato alliance.
As for:
"You can see that very specifically today in Iraq, where the second largest contributor in terms of air strikes and air patrols is Britain by a very large margin," he said.
"You have to add up several other countries to get to the scale of what we are doing, second after the Americans."
"You have to add up several other countries to get to the scale of what we are doing, second after the Americans."
And how do we stack up against say, ooh, the French? With their aircraft carrier now on station in the Gulf on top of their Mirages in Jordan. And their 816 troops in Lebanon which is also teetering on the brink right now, alongside a similar training mission to our own in Iraq. And somehow, they've also managed to find time to get involved in Ukrainian negotiations. And I won't even begin to look at how many troops they still have scattered across the map in Africa countering extremists there.
Maybe people are right, maybe they really don't give a damn about defence. Their bluster and BS at least used to be credible at one point, rather than being able to be pulled apart in 5 minutes. And to think it all started so promisingly with the announcement of a strategic review and the creation of a National Security Council. Wonder what their last big decision was - custard creams or bourbons?
At the moment there are probably less votes dependent on the defence budget than there are for the NHS or education budgets. The Tories are also protecting the foreign aid budget in order to show how different the are from the 1980 and 1990's vintage nasty Tory party. However as a result of protecting the NHS, education and foreign aid deeper cuts will be required elsewhere else including for example defence and the police. The trouble is every other party is pledging almost exactly the same policies.
Skydiver,
You're right, I can't argue with anything you've just said. Doesn't make it anymore palatable though. And that's what makes me so unspeakably angry about this whole scenario. We aren't asking for the moon on a stick, just enough to be able to do what we have been asked to do and to be able to do it properly.
I wonder who will get the blame when something goes 'bang' on a crowded shopping street, or we lose a Voyager on ops, or a 747 is brought down over a city or have a major strategic defeat on operations that humiliates us as a nation and does lasting damage to our strategic, political and therefore invariably our economic credibility. It won't the politicians fault that's for sure.
Edited to add as an after thought - I guess this all boils down to the fact that we as a nation just don't 'get' or do strategy. We read lots of books on it and quote lots of Clausewitz and Sun Tzu, but I really don't think we understand or believe what we read. If we did, we wouldn't be in this mess right now.
You're right, I can't argue with anything you've just said. Doesn't make it anymore palatable though. And that's what makes me so unspeakably angry about this whole scenario. We aren't asking for the moon on a stick, just enough to be able to do what we have been asked to do and to be able to do it properly.
I wonder who will get the blame when something goes 'bang' on a crowded shopping street, or we lose a Voyager on ops, or a 747 is brought down over a city or have a major strategic defeat on operations that humiliates us as a nation and does lasting damage to our strategic, political and therefore invariably our economic credibility. It won't the politicians fault that's for sure.
Edited to add as an after thought - I guess this all boils down to the fact that we as a nation just don't 'get' or do strategy. We read lots of books on it and quote lots of Clausewitz and Sun Tzu, but I really don't think we understand or believe what we read. If we did, we wouldn't be in this mess right now.
Last edited by Melchett01; 2nd Mar 2015 at 20:49.
Public perception is now that we are out of Afghanistan and Iraq (yes, I know) so defence is not an issue. No politician is likely to commit ground forces to any more large ops until they have to by necessity as the public are fed up of it. We can continue to send Typhoons to intercept Russian bombers, events which will become less newsworthy and so will slip out of the public eye.
Retired generals, admirals and air marshals can continue to stamp their feet as much as they for all the good it will do, and the armed forces will slowly reduce in size until they are little more than a home defence force with an aircraft carrier to show the flag elsewhere, and a proportionate contribution to NATO's RRF. Which is fine as long as that is all they are there to do, but if any politician feels we should be playing world policeman, then he or she will have to divert resources and funding to the armed forces from elsewhere. Which will never happen until a Kilo-class surfaces next to the Palace of Westminster.
On which note, even a home defence force has to be able to watch over its own sea lanes.
Retired generals, admirals and air marshals can continue to stamp their feet as much as they for all the good it will do, and the armed forces will slowly reduce in size until they are little more than a home defence force with an aircraft carrier to show the flag elsewhere, and a proportionate contribution to NATO's RRF. Which is fine as long as that is all they are there to do, but if any politician feels we should be playing world policeman, then he or she will have to divert resources and funding to the armed forces from elsewhere. Which will never happen until a Kilo-class surfaces next to the Palace of Westminster.
On which note, even a home defence force has to be able to watch over its own sea lanes.