Greater equality or papering over the cracks?
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Stanwell,
A propos your suggestion in your #101, a thought has occurred to me (it does happen from time to time). If I were the First Sea Lord (which having regard to the safety of the realm, thank the Lord I'm not, sir), a wicked gleam might appear in my weatherbeaten old eye.
How about selecting a corvette or something of that size, and arrange for it to be crewed from Captain to ship's cat entirely with females ? (there must be some WRNS senior enough in the Seaman branch for Captaincy).
It would be interesting to see how popular service in this ship might prove to be among the feminist sorority, faced with a six-month commission in a steel nunnery. Then we should know what the draw of sea service really was: Life on the Ocean Wave - or Jolly Jack Tar !
Perhaps Union Jack could offer an opinion on this proposal ?
D.
A propos your suggestion in your #101, a thought has occurred to me (it does happen from time to time). If I were the First Sea Lord (which having regard to the safety of the realm, thank the Lord I'm not, sir), a wicked gleam might appear in my weatherbeaten old eye.
How about selecting a corvette or something of that size, and arrange for it to be crewed from Captain to ship's cat entirely with females ? (there must be some WRNS senior enough in the Seaman branch for Captaincy).
It would be interesting to see how popular service in this ship might prove to be among the feminist sorority, faced with a six-month commission in a steel nunnery. Then we should know what the draw of sea service really was: Life on the Ocean Wave - or Jolly Jack Tar !
Perhaps Union Jack could offer an opinion on this proposal ?
D.
How about selecting a corvette or something of that size, and arrange for it to be crewed from Captain to ship's cat entirely with females ? (there must be some WRNS senior enough in the Seaman branch for Captaincy).
It would be interesting to see how popular service in this ship might prove to be among the feminist sorority, faced with a six-month commission in a steel nunnery. Then we should know what the draw of sea service really was: Life on the Ocean Wave - or Jolly Jack Tar !
It would be interesting to see how popular service in this ship might prove to be among the feminist sorority, faced with a six-month commission in a steel nunnery. Then we should know what the draw of sea service really was: Life on the Ocean Wave - or Jolly Jack Tar !
Last edited by Melchett01; 27th Dec 2014 at 13:30.
How about selecting a corvette or something of that size, and arrange for it to be crewed from Captain to ship's cat entirely with females ? (there must be some WRNS senior enough in the Seaman branch for Captaincy).
It would be interesting to see how popular service in this ship might prove to be among the feminist sorority, faced with a six-month commission in a steel nunnery. Then we should know what the draw of sea service really was: Life on the Ocean Wave - or Jolly Jack Tar !
It would be interesting to see how popular service in this ship might prove to be among the feminist sorority, faced with a six-month commission in a steel nunnery. Then we should know what the draw of sea service really was: Life on the Ocean Wave - or Jolly Jack Tar !
Imagine some poor chap flying an enemy aeoplane gets shot down over the sea and he's rescued and taken prisoner by the all female corvette crew, out in the middle of nowhere in particular?!?!?!?!
FB
How about selecting a corvette or something of that size, and arrange for it to be crewed from Captain to ship's cat entirely with females ? (there must be some WRNS senior enough in the Seaman branch for Captaincy).
It would be interesting to see how popular service in this ship might prove to be among the feminist sorority, faced with a six-month commission in a steel nunnery. Then we should know what the draw of sea service really was: Life on the Ocean Wave - or Jolly Jack Tar !
It would be interesting to see how popular service in this ship might prove to be among the feminist sorority, faced with a six-month commission in a steel nunnery. Then we should know what the draw of sea service really was: Life on the Ocean Wave - or Jolly Jack Tar !
Compliments of the season!
Baffman
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melchett01,
Perhaps they'd all have to take a vow of obedience, and have a really tough Mother Superior type (as Master-at-Arms ?) aboard. (I've known one or two who'd easily qualify).
Baffman,
This Best of All Threads on PPRuNe is a time macnine !
Finningley Boy ,
Well, at least he'd be found with a smile on his face !
All the best for '15, Danny.
Perhaps they'd all have to take a vow of obedience, and have a really tough Mother Superior type (as Master-at-Arms ?) aboard. (I've known one or two who'd easily qualify).
Baffman,
This Best of All Threads on PPRuNe is a time macnine !
Finningley Boy ,
Well, at least he'd be found with a smile on his face !
All the best for '15, Danny.
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I'm no expert but I do have recent operational experience commanding a tri-service unit in a dismounted close combat role.
When it came to pre-deployment training and assessment, all physical activity and tests were undertaken on a gender, age and capbadge neutral basis. This meant that all personnel passed to the infantry standard in terms of weight carried and times achieved; hard work to get there but achievable if (as we were) you are trained and prepared over sufficient time and with a PT programme designed to take in to account that not everyone deploying was a 20 year old infantryman. Our PT instructors were outstanding in terms of building-up specific areas (ie upper body strength for the females, knackered knees and ankles for old-timers like me) at a sustainable tempo. As a consequence, I have no doubt that there is nothing to prevent females being physically capable of undertaking the role of frontline infantry.
The issue of unit cohesion is, in my opinion, a complete red herring. Both in barracks and on deployment we have for many years had males and females living eating and sleeping alongside (and sometimes with) each other. Unit cohesion hasn't broken down and there doesn't seem to have been a detrimental effect on operational efficiency. As for how the blokes would react to a female member of their unit being wounded, having been in that very situation myself all you care about is that one of your team is down and gender doesn't come in to it.
The appropriate person, appropriately selected & trained and with the appropriate kit - gender shouldn't come in to it.
MB
When it came to pre-deployment training and assessment, all physical activity and tests were undertaken on a gender, age and capbadge neutral basis. This meant that all personnel passed to the infantry standard in terms of weight carried and times achieved; hard work to get there but achievable if (as we were) you are trained and prepared over sufficient time and with a PT programme designed to take in to account that not everyone deploying was a 20 year old infantryman. Our PT instructors were outstanding in terms of building-up specific areas (ie upper body strength for the females, knackered knees and ankles for old-timers like me) at a sustainable tempo. As a consequence, I have no doubt that there is nothing to prevent females being physically capable of undertaking the role of frontline infantry.
The issue of unit cohesion is, in my opinion, a complete red herring. Both in barracks and on deployment we have for many years had males and females living eating and sleeping alongside (and sometimes with) each other. Unit cohesion hasn't broken down and there doesn't seem to have been a detrimental effect on operational efficiency. As for how the blokes would react to a female member of their unit being wounded, having been in that very situation myself all you care about is that one of your team is down and gender doesn't come in to it.
The appropriate person, appropriately selected & trained and with the appropriate kit - gender shouldn't come in to it.
MB
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One of the more interesting posts on this thread, so far...
The term 'dismounted' is not familiar to me but it brings some amusing images to mind.
So, the girls and guys were getting it off in the barracks - and how about the guys and guys?
Must have been hard to get some sleep.
The term 'dismounted' is not familiar to me but it brings some amusing images to mind.
So, the girls and guys were getting it off in the barracks - and how about the guys and guys?
Must have been hard to get some sleep.
MB quote "
When it came to pre-deployment training and assessment, all physical activity and tests were undertaken on a gender, age and capbadge neutral basis. This meant that all personnel passed to the infantry standard in terms of weight carried and times achieved".
I am sorry old chap but, could you just confirm that means "everybody passed the SAME standard"?
OAP
When it came to pre-deployment training and assessment, all physical activity and tests were undertaken on a gender, age and capbadge neutral basis. This meant that all personnel passed to the infantry standard in terms of weight carried and times achieved".
I am sorry old chap but, could you just confirm that means "everybody passed the SAME standard"?
OAP
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Danny,
Am I not right in saying that the tenure of the first female Commanding Officer in a major surface combatant ended in a (for a variety of reasons) disappointing manner?
Am I not right in saying that the tenure of the first female Commanding Officer in a major surface combatant ended in a (for a variety of reasons) disappointing manner?
Danny & Pontious,
I can imagine the poor chap propped up between two Amazons while the Angelina Jolie look alike Captain draws on her Cigarette holder while cupping the elbow of that hand with the other, then saying in a heavy Russian accent, take him down below and get those wet things off him!
More in the next thrilling instalment!
FB
I can imagine the poor chap propped up between two Amazons while the Angelina Jolie look alike Captain draws on her Cigarette holder while cupping the elbow of that hand with the other, then saying in a heavy Russian accent, take him down below and get those wet things off him!
More in the next thrilling instalment!
FB
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Onceapilot,
One benchmark for everyone irrespective of age, gender or service. Pass/fail as per the infantry standard, no complaints from anyone.
Stanwell,
Dismounted Close Combat (DCC) is one of the two components of Ground Close Combat (GCC) discussed in the recent review.
See para 13 at the link below for further detail:
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...aper_Final.pdf
As for what goes on in barracks or otherwise, if it passes the service test it is (officially at least!) of no concern to me.
MB
One benchmark for everyone irrespective of age, gender or service. Pass/fail as per the infantry standard, no complaints from anyone.
Stanwell,
Dismounted Close Combat (DCC) is one of the two components of Ground Close Combat (GCC) discussed in the recent review.
See para 13 at the link below for further detail:
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...aper_Final.pdf
As for what goes on in barracks or otherwise, if it passes the service test it is (officially at least!) of no concern to me.
MB
Many thanks MB, quote "One benchmark for everyone irrespective of age, gender or service. Pass/fail as per the infantry standard, no complaints from anyone."
Would you comment upon the present military fitness requirements that do discriminate on age and gender?
OAP
Would you comment upon the present military fitness requirements that do discriminate on age and gender?
OAP
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No one would dispute that a woman can do an excellent job in the Forces as an Air Traffic Controller, a pilot, an infantryperson or a steam-raising Engineer or anything else, but there are limits.
The question is: Is it right that she should be asked to go into close combat with a man who is (iin most cases), bigger, heavier and stronger.
Wrote Oscar Wilde:
"I know not whether laws be right,
Or whether laws be wrong".
I would invoke Kant's Categorical Imperative: (the morality of any action may be judged by its universal application) - in other words, what would happen if everybody did it all the time ?
The question is: Is it right that she should be asked to go into close combat with a man who is (iin most cases), bigger, heavier and stronger.
Wrote Oscar Wilde:
"I know not whether laws be right,
Or whether laws be wrong".
I would invoke Kant's Categorical Imperative: (the morality of any action may be judged by its universal application) - in other words, what would happen if everybody did it all the time ?
Last edited by Danny42C; 30th Dec 2014 at 01:11. Reason: Spelling
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
OAP, I do know that there was only one standard in the RAciAL Regiment 20 years ago when my daughter was in it. Aside from the old BUT they all had to pass the CFT. Just the one standard.
the issue is not just about carrying the weight to the infantry standard, that's only half the battle.
can the women conduct section attacks, then tab some more, then dig into a harbour area for a week on compo?
that's all a world away from dismounted triservice humint/loggie ops!
can the women conduct section attacks, then tab some more, then dig into a harbour area for a week on compo?
that's all a world away from dismounted triservice humint/loggie ops!
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Training Risky,
if your reference to HUMINT/Loggie roles was in response to my posts, in the words of Roy Walker, "it's good, but it's not right". That said, I'm trying not to be too specific as we are on an open forum after all.
As to your question ref section attacks etc; the situation you describe is exactly what RAMC, Int Corps, RE, RLC, RAVC etc attached personnel (including females) having been doing for years in Iraq and Afghanistan when participating in the everyday activities of ground-holding units. As you are no doubt aware, when you are on the ground your first role is that of rifleman (whatever your background), your specialised role only comes into play when required.
I can only speak of my own experiences over the last 25 years (which may or may not be representative of the wider issue), experiences which have covered the whole range of activities from being so far to the rear in an ops room that I sent my dhobi forward, to dismounting from a Warrior to hear the command "fix bayonets". As I said in my original post I'm no expert; my own view (entirely personal and based only on observation and experience) is that in terms of physical capability, mental toughness and fighting spirit there is no inherent/intrinsic difference which would preclude females per se from undertaking a role with the primary purpose of closing with and killing the enemy.
MB
if your reference to HUMINT/Loggie roles was in response to my posts, in the words of Roy Walker, "it's good, but it's not right". That said, I'm trying not to be too specific as we are on an open forum after all.
As to your question ref section attacks etc; the situation you describe is exactly what RAMC, Int Corps, RE, RLC, RAVC etc attached personnel (including females) having been doing for years in Iraq and Afghanistan when participating in the everyday activities of ground-holding units. As you are no doubt aware, when you are on the ground your first role is that of rifleman (whatever your background), your specialised role only comes into play when required.
I can only speak of my own experiences over the last 25 years (which may or may not be representative of the wider issue), experiences which have covered the whole range of activities from being so far to the rear in an ops room that I sent my dhobi forward, to dismounting from a Warrior to hear the command "fix bayonets". As I said in my original post I'm no expert; my own view (entirely personal and based only on observation and experience) is that in terms of physical capability, mental toughness and fighting spirit there is no inherent/intrinsic difference which would preclude females per se from undertaking a role with the primary purpose of closing with and killing the enemy.
MB