Ex military pilots formate A350s
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Quote: If you are in a formation with another airlifter on either side of yours, when the formation makes a 30 degree bank to the left the aircraft on the left will be obscured by the cockpit ceiling.
- not in the formations I have flown in. You must have a unique (and expensive) way of formating
- not in the formations I have flown in. You must have a unique (and expensive) way of formating
"Expensive?" An eyebrow window is expensive? Numerous tactical airlifters from the little C-27 to the big C-17 and most everything in between have eyebrow windows. LACK of an eyebrow window could be very expensive indeed if it results in two aircraft trying to occupy the same point in airspace at the same time. Nature has a very nasty way of resolving that impossibility.
Quote: This resulted in the distance between the turning aircraft ALWAYS increasing during the entire turn.
by no means 'guaranteed'!
by no means 'guaranteed'!
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Originally Posted by Tourist
There is at least one civvy self sponsored ETP. I met her at a GAPAN do a couple of years ago. Very impressive she was too.
Apparently the laws of basic geometry were different in the formations you flew in. Sit in almost any airliner cockpit and look up 30 degress at your 9 o'clock.
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Not sure how you flew formation Ken, but in all the large aircraft formations I've flown I haven't needed to look up 30 degrees whilst I'm in formation. If I did I would have been well out of position. This is close formation we are talking about.
Just been having a chat with the off-spring - all the pilots in the formation were ex-military fast-jet as are most but not all Airbus TPs. One German ex-mil turned down the offer, as being ex-Atlantics IIRC thought it wasn't his thing. I gather all the experimental TPs are ex fast-jet.
There is a lady at Airbus who is ex-BA and paid for her course at Boscombe, he said.
There is a lady at Airbus who is ex-BA and paid for her course at Boscombe, he said.
No Ken, when the lead aircraft is in a 30 bank turn I stay in formation position, the horizon is irrelevant to me as my leader is my horizon and I am in exactly the same position as I was in when the lead was straight and level. Now of course if I had done a flat turn I would lose sight of the lead.
KenV, with respect I think you are mixing the different types of formation,and manoeuvres within those formations.
Close Formation- like the T`Birds,Arrows,PdeFrance etc; you use references such as wingtip/nose/rudder to give you spacing and position,and you hold that `picture` following the leader`s every move.that `picture should stay in it`s relative position irrespective of whether you are in a turn,level,rolling or looping.
Tactical- a much broader /longer gap between aircraft,and usually done in sections seperated by maybe a couple of miles.This allows full freedom of movement of each aircraft to manoeuvre/checking for hostiles and avoiding,and using natural features for cover/radar shadow.
SKE- usually a long stream of aircraft,but may be in sections spaced by both timing/distance/bearing from the Lead aircraft; usually used to airdrop paras/loads/equipment etc over a specified L/DZ.When lead turns ,you fly to that position ,then turn,otherwise it looks like `ballroom dancing`...
In a multi/large aircraft in `echelon`,and going for a `break`,it is fair game to let the pilot on the `break` side do it,as he can see the preceding aircraft and control the roll and pull,keeping the other aircraft `on the horizon`...
Close Formation- like the T`Birds,Arrows,PdeFrance etc; you use references such as wingtip/nose/rudder to give you spacing and position,and you hold that `picture` following the leader`s every move.that `picture should stay in it`s relative position irrespective of whether you are in a turn,level,rolling or looping.
Tactical- a much broader /longer gap between aircraft,and usually done in sections seperated by maybe a couple of miles.This allows full freedom of movement of each aircraft to manoeuvre/checking for hostiles and avoiding,and using natural features for cover/radar shadow.
SKE- usually a long stream of aircraft,but may be in sections spaced by both timing/distance/bearing from the Lead aircraft; usually used to airdrop paras/loads/equipment etc over a specified L/DZ.When lead turns ,you fly to that position ,then turn,otherwise it looks like `ballroom dancing`...
In a multi/large aircraft in `echelon`,and going for a `break`,it is fair game to let the pilot on the `break` side do it,as he can see the preceding aircraft and control the roll and pull,keeping the other aircraft `on the horizon`...
I agree Wander00, goodwill to all men.
However, it disappointing that open, and informed comment by myself, is treated with such contempt by someone who, if you read his posts, merely inserts his view or taunt, without adding any information or merit to the discussion.
Just my opinion!
OAP
However, it disappointing that open, and informed comment by myself, is treated with such contempt by someone who, if you read his posts, merely inserts his view or taunt, without adding any information or merit to the discussion. Just my opinion!
OAP
sycamore: Believe me, a "Heavy" aircraft break is a dangerous manoeuvre! You will often become unsighted on all other formation members, until you roll-out downwind, unless you limit it to about 5degrees AOB!
That said, it was done regularly.
OAP
That said, it was done regularly.OAP
Originally Posted by tartare
Impressive to see that peel off though; a few hundred tons of airliner rolling away like a fighter...
A good friend of mine was a BA employee at the time and was in one of them for the flight (BA drew staff numbers out of a hat to fill the four a/c and he was one of the lucky ones).
He said the best bit was when they rolled away in the formation break
OAP, I know ,I flew #4 in the `Green Barrows`...wall-to-wall aloominum and Hamilton Standards....
On the subject of large aircraft "breaks", there is of course the problem of runway occupancy, something which tends to lead to long intervals between the split and, extended downwind legs-into the next County!
OAP
OAP
GeeRam. A great picture of a great aircraft!
Perhaps some contributors might guess which RAF aircraft carried all the BA guest passengers on the last "Concorde QBF" (when passengers were not allowed to fly in the BA Concorde!)?
OAP
Perhaps some contributors might guess which RAF aircraft carried all the BA guest passengers on the last "Concorde QBF" (when passengers were not allowed to fly in the BA Concorde!)?
OAP
Last edited by Onceapilot; 19th Dec 2014 at 17:40.
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KenV - why don't you get hold of a couple of toy a/c and practice some formation? Even just use your hands. Then you'll see!
OAP - as you say - the only safe way to break ANY formation really is to brief bank angles and g for the break.
OAP - as you say - the only safe way to break ANY formation really is to brief bank angles and g for the break.
Roland Pulfrew, when we first flew formation in the VC10K back in 1984, the brief was to fly 'flat' in echelon in any turn away from echelon. So if you were in echelon right, a left turn would require a flat turn.
Quite where this daftness originated, I don't know. But as we had several ex-FJ folk on the course, as one we called "Bolleaux to this!" and from then on flew all turns exactly as we had in any other RAF aircraft. Had we flown 3 aircraft in echelon, perhaps a flat turn would have been necessary, but not for routine pairs formation.
In that A350 formation, it looked to me that the crew was looking up and out to confirm that they were adequately spaced during a formation break - not to maintain close formation.
Onceapilot, close formation breaks were part of the basic VC10K course and certainly weren't dangerous. They were fully briefed and flown to an SOP. The only 'dangerous' event I recall was when a pair of VC10Ks was breaking left on RW09 at Brize and some JATE C-130 cowboy decided to barge into the circuit between them from a downwind join.... Fortunately the no.2 spotted it and delayed his break accordingly.
Quite where this daftness originated, I don't know. But as we had several ex-FJ folk on the course, as one we called "Bolleaux to this!" and from then on flew all turns exactly as we had in any other RAF aircraft. Had we flown 3 aircraft in echelon, perhaps a flat turn would have been necessary, but not for routine pairs formation.
In that A350 formation, it looked to me that the crew was looking up and out to confirm that they were adequately spaced during a formation break - not to maintain close formation.
Onceapilot, close formation breaks were part of the basic VC10K course and certainly weren't dangerous. They were fully briefed and flown to an SOP. The only 'dangerous' event I recall was when a pair of VC10Ks was breaking left on RW09 at Brize and some JATE C-130 cowboy decided to barge into the circuit between them from a downwind join.... Fortunately the no.2 spotted it and delayed his break accordingly.
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Although not a large aircraft, the HS125 cockpit layout means that it displays many of the difficulties mentioned when trying to conduct formation flying. We gained a wealth of experience in formation flying while operating the 200 Series for over 43 years. One thing that has not been mentioned is where the handling pilot should sit. It was found that it was always better for the handling pilot to be in the seat closest to the lead, ie echelon left sit in right hand seat. I was quite content to be right hand seat captain and handling pilot.
I know that some of our “God Given” QFIs said that they were happy to fly cross cockpit, however, few could perform as well as they thought. The general trend would be to drift wide and ruin the shape of the formation. Cross cockpit could also lead to high excitement if one were to get out of position and then the leader started an unexpected turn. Cross cockpit flying permits a far shorter time before one is “lost lead”.
Flat turns require a lot of practice and allow little margin for error when flown in the correct position. A loose flat turn may be employed, however, lead/lag and rate of closure have to be understood. One may suggest that echelon turns of more than 2 large aircraft needs a smooth leader and a lot of practice.
I was amused by the suggestion that Fast Jet TPs would be great at close formation. I have witnessed a few would are very mediocre, particularly when conducting AAR. There are many line pilots flying various models of Airbus who have far greater formation handling skills.
I know that some of our “God Given” QFIs said that they were happy to fly cross cockpit, however, few could perform as well as they thought. The general trend would be to drift wide and ruin the shape of the formation. Cross cockpit could also lead to high excitement if one were to get out of position and then the leader started an unexpected turn. Cross cockpit flying permits a far shorter time before one is “lost lead”.
Flat turns require a lot of practice and allow little margin for error when flown in the correct position. A loose flat turn may be employed, however, lead/lag and rate of closure have to be understood. One may suggest that echelon turns of more than 2 large aircraft needs a smooth leader and a lot of practice.
I was amused by the suggestion that Fast Jet TPs would be great at close formation. I have witnessed a few would are very mediocre, particularly when conducting AAR. There are many line pilots flying various models of Airbus who have far greater formation handling skills.
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There is at least one civvy self sponsored ETP. I met her at a GAPAN do a couple of years ago. Very impressive she was too.
She is just doing acceptance flights at Airbus - which some people call test flights. She wouldn't have been called for the display of the 350s ....
ETPS - a private business now with Qinetiq - is offering abbreviated tailor-made courses (one or thwo months) for production factory pilots. Not much to do with the full one-year TP course - but even after a two-days course, you can get from them the badge and keys Handler....
Being a woman she had some rules being relaxed for her, as is often the case.
She is just doing acceptance flights at Airbus - which some people call test flights. She wouldn't have been called for the display of the 350s ....
ETPS - a private business now with Qinetiq - is offering abbreviated tailor-made courses (one or thwo months) for production factory pilots. Not much to do with the full one-year TP course - but even after a two-days course, you can get from them the badge and keys Handler....
Being a woman she had some rules being relaxed for her, as is often the case.