MOD announces RAF Tornados in air on way to Iraq.
This campaign is the first to be directly - and very publicly - approved by Parliament and there is considerable support for this across the political and public spectrum, and yes, perhaps in our 'contract' with the British public, they want to know, and want to see, what we are doing.
The media is full of spotter-details on Storm Shadow, EPWIV, (alleged) RC 135 capabilities &c and there is a huge public and political expectation of a long, but ultimately successful operation. Don't forget that the IO campaign run by 'us' is central to our mission planning - just as it is for ISIS, assuming that their collect, report, analyse and disseminate loop works (and that's a big 'if'), but by the media declaring that aircraft are airborne increases the pressure on the insurgents; they may go to ground and in effect we've achieved a mobility kill. Northern Iraq is a huge piece of sand and the probability that the ISIS C3I (again, a big 'is') is capable of detecting where those aircraft are in the battlespace (except by visual means, by which time, I suggest, it's a bit late)is negligible. They may have an array of sophisticated AAA and MANPADS, but they lack an ADGE. Call me old fashioned, but that is a critical - and missing - component.
The media is full of spotter-details on Storm Shadow, EPWIV, (alleged) RC 135 capabilities &c and there is a huge public and political expectation of a long, but ultimately successful operation. Don't forget that the IO campaign run by 'us' is central to our mission planning - just as it is for ISIS, assuming that their collect, report, analyse and disseminate loop works (and that's a big 'if'), but by the media declaring that aircraft are airborne increases the pressure on the insurgents; they may go to ground and in effect we've achieved a mobility kill. Northern Iraq is a huge piece of sand and the probability that the ISIS C3I (again, a big 'is') is capable of detecting where those aircraft are in the battlespace (except by visual means, by which time, I suggest, it's a bit late)is negligible. They may have an array of sophisticated AAA and MANPADS, but they lack an ADGE. Call me old fashioned, but that is a critical - and missing - component.
Last edited by Whenurhappy; 28th Sep 2014 at 07:01.
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London
Posts: 7,072
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ATFQ wrote:-
"Today’s combat aircraft are more capable than those of 1991 but eventually technology cannot substitute for numbers, especially when attempting to sustain enduring operations."
This of course is another example of NR Augustine's famous Law from 1984
"law number 16, which shows that defence budgets grow linearly but the unit cost of a new military aircraft grows exponentially: In the year 2054, the entire defence budget will purchase just one aircraft. This aircraft will have to be shared by the Air Force and Navy 3½ days each per week except for leap year, when it will be made available to the Marines for the extra day."
"Today’s combat aircraft are more capable than those of 1991 but eventually technology cannot substitute for numbers, especially when attempting to sustain enduring operations."
This of course is another example of NR Augustine's famous Law from 1984
"law number 16, which shows that defence budgets grow linearly but the unit cost of a new military aircraft grows exponentially: In the year 2054, the entire defence budget will purchase just one aircraft. This aircraft will have to be shared by the Air Force and Navy 3½ days each per week except for leap year, when it will be made available to the Marines for the extra day."
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: UK, for now.
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ShotOne
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 754
This is 2014 guys. If you think you can send a load of jets somewhere secretly, you're living on another planet. Even if you could, the media war is part of the real war.
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 754
This is 2014 guys. If you think you can send a load of jets somewhere secretly, you're living on another planet. Even if you could, the media war is part of the real war.
I believe we had that capability until quite recently. What happened to it, Mr Cameron?
HH
"law number 16, which shows that defence budgets grow linearly but the unit cost of a new military aircraft grows exponentially: In the year 2054, the entire defence budget will purchase just one aircraft. This aircraft will have to be shared by the Air Force and Navy 3½ days each per week except for leap year, when it will be made available to the Marines for the extra day."
I had immense amusement with this in the early 80's when dealing with a certain MoD Civil Service department's prediction on future Tu 22M "Backfire" production.
It seemed unduly high.
When queried, the lady concerned admitted that her figures were an extrapolation of production figures of something that she had studied in the then USSR .
: Washing machines.
"law number 16, which shows that defence budgets grow linearly but the unit cost of a new military aircraft grows exponentially: In the year 2054, the entire defence budget will purchase just one aircraft. This aircraft will have to be shared by the Air Force and Navy 3½ days each per week except for leap year, when it will be made available to the Marines for the extra day."
I had immense amusement with this in the early 80's when dealing with a certain MoD Civil Service department's prediction on future Tu 22M "Backfire" production.
It seemed unduly high.
When queried, the lady concerned admitted that her figures were an extrapolation of production figures of something that she had studied in the then USSR .
: Washing machines.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In the Ether
Posts: 437
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It quite simple really - the MoD's timing of press releases gives away the true raison d'etre of the mission.
You can send missions in any level of secrecy required...however, IF the mission's prime aim is PR and political leverage, then why would you (depending on the degree of control of the air)?
It's been a theme over the last couple of years. Not pleasant if you are THAT crew, either way.
You can send missions in any level of secrecy required...however, IF the mission's prime aim is PR and political leverage, then why would you (depending on the degree of control of the air)?
It's been a theme over the last couple of years. Not pleasant if you are THAT crew, either way.
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: England
Posts: 924
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Parts of British public life seem devoid of shame or humanity at times. IMHO a news blackout on operations should be totally maintained. But the appetite for the news is at times even more than voracious. Its probably horrifying for families of serving personnel.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: bristol
Age: 56
Posts: 1,051
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PN and Melchette
I knew I'd get a bite, but you are both wrong IMHO.
This tactic has been used for over sixty years, and even a few decades ago was a worthwhile effort for nation states SF to undertake (some PPruNers have in fact help facilitate airfield over watch).
Pontius, when you consider just how easy it IS for the exact movements to not only be reported well before the tonkas will be thinking of releasing weapons, you may see the advantage of the near real time report rather than the half baked (rarely live and often after the attack) media report. The watchers won't 'try' to report as you out it, but 'will' report.
It may be worth remembering I come from a green rather than light blue background so this isn't the first time I've considered how this 'watching' might be done
It's also worth noting that monitoring movements and reporting onwards isn't illegal for a civilian. The last few times RAF Fairford has been a staging point for USAF B52 raids there have been loads of people watching the take offs and landings, yet there was no restriction on use of mobile phones. I was even once asked by a copper on duty how many I thought were spotters and how many were spies
Melchette.
OPSEC you refer to is a military thing that military folks are bound by. Journalists on the other hand often work for commercial companies and have their employers profit in mind, and they are NOT bound by OPSEC whether you or I like it or not
When bound by the official secrets acts I couldn't reveal what type of pen or colour of ink I used, by a journalist could photograph anything I wrote and publish it worldwide.
The issue here is with what many of us here would like to happen, but living in a free society the media and anyone concerned else are perfectly happy to do what they want!
I knew I'd get a bite, but you are both wrong IMHO.
This tactic has been used for over sixty years, and even a few decades ago was a worthwhile effort for nation states SF to undertake (some PPruNers have in fact help facilitate airfield over watch).
Pontius, when you consider just how easy it IS for the exact movements to not only be reported well before the tonkas will be thinking of releasing weapons, you may see the advantage of the near real time report rather than the half baked (rarely live and often after the attack) media report. The watchers won't 'try' to report as you out it, but 'will' report.
It may be worth remembering I come from a green rather than light blue background so this isn't the first time I've considered how this 'watching' might be done
It's also worth noting that monitoring movements and reporting onwards isn't illegal for a civilian. The last few times RAF Fairford has been a staging point for USAF B52 raids there have been loads of people watching the take offs and landings, yet there was no restriction on use of mobile phones. I was even once asked by a copper on duty how many I thought were spotters and how many were spies
Melchette.
OPSEC you refer to is a military thing that military folks are bound by. Journalists on the other hand often work for commercial companies and have their employers profit in mind, and they are NOT bound by OPSEC whether you or I like it or not
When bound by the official secrets acts I couldn't reveal what type of pen or colour of ink I used, by a journalist could photograph anything I wrote and publish it worldwide.
The issue here is with what many of us here would like to happen, but living in a free society the media and anyone concerned else are perfectly happy to do what they want!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
BS, you are of course correct in the context quoted.
I am sure you are familiar with Akrotiri, so the wire there is quite different from Fairford. If base security is stepped up and aircraft route away from the island, load outs will not be seen easily.
PR would indeed be the driver.
I am sure you are familiar with Akrotiri, so the wire there is quite different from Fairford. If base security is stepped up and aircraft route away from the island, load outs will not be seen easily.
PR would indeed be the driver.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is 2014 guys. If you think you can send a load of jets somewhere secretly, you're living on another planet. Even if you could, the media war is part of the real war.
A couple of years back, all of East Anglia could hear the GR4's heading out to Libya to deliver some Stormshadow's. Sat in my double-glazed house, 40-miles from Marham with the TV on it was pretty obvious the aircraft overhead weren't civilian. Nor lightly loaded.
Without cutting Cypress off from the world how would it be possible to stop word getting out? Locals would innocently put stuff on Facebook, Twitter, etc. Perhaps the MoD have realised that in the modern world there is no feasible way to stop this kind of information from getting out.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: bristol
Age: 56
Posts: 1,051
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PN
As a comical take on this.
Another issue the RAF have is that it only has a couple of aircraft left to fly.
Back in the time of your flying career there was a lot more to look at and so it was harder to keep tabs on things, and a lot less tech to do it with
The way the cuts are going the RAF may soon just be sending ordnance via FedEx, with instructions to the target recipient on how to set off the bomb
As a comical take on this.
Another issue the RAF have is that it only has a couple of aircraft left to fly.
Back in the time of your flying career there was a lot more to look at and so it was harder to keep tabs on things, and a lot less tech to do it with
The way the cuts are going the RAF may soon just be sending ordnance via FedEx, with instructions to the target recipient on how to set off the bomb
a news blackout on operations should be totally maintained
In this day and age of smart phones, instant news via Faceb**k. Twatter, Instagram and the like the MOD have got to lead turn the armchair experts.
Just out of curiosity, do the tracks of the aircraft operating out of "the secret airbase in Cyprus
" appear on Flight Tracker and the like? I assume they have to squawk into and out of their AOR? There are naval trackers about (such as the one here) but which, given the speeds involved is less dynamic.
Saudi aircrew under threat
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: troon
Age: 61
Posts: 551
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well at least some pilots will be getting some serious stick time in. Whats the transit time from Cyprus.
Never mind fighter pilots, if you work in a food processing plant in Oklahoma you are a target of these evil b@stards now.
Alton Nolen, Oklahoma beheading suspect, will be charged with 1st-degree murder - World - CBC News
We're all in it. That's the nature of evil.
Good to see the Saudis doing their bit.
Alton Nolen, Oklahoma beheading suspect, will be charged with 1st-degree murder - World - CBC News
We're all in it. That's the nature of evil.
Good to see the Saudis doing their bit.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
You are right, in my day real aircraft had bomb bays. We could truck a full bomb load around the world with no one the wiser.
Handy things, bomb bays. Could start a new thread "What we carried in our bomb bay"
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: bristol
Age: 56
Posts: 1,051
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PN
Goodness me.......Noooooooooo don't start that thread (I think it's been done anyway) or we will be bombarded again with tales of weber BBQs, Scottish fish and alcohol
I hear bomb bays are making a come though, so that's good
Goodness me.......Noooooooooo don't start that thread (I think it's been done anyway) or we will be bombarded again with tales of weber BBQs, Scottish fish and alcohol
I hear bomb bays are making a come though, so that's good
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,958
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Sending ordnance by FedEx...." Been happening for ages! A large proportion (probably most?) of the ordnance expended in Afganistan and Iraq WAS delivered by commercial airlines with their crews exposed to every bit as much risk as anyone in the armed forces. Witness the 2003 missile strike in Iraq ( DHL not FedEx) which was only saved by the most superb flying of its crew.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: bristol
Age: 56
Posts: 1,051
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Now there have been two replies to my FedEx comment it's obvious I wasnt clear in what I meant
I was referring to sending the ordnance direct to the opposition by post instead of using RAF aircraft, not delivering it to the allied side !
I was referring to sending the ordnance direct to the opposition by post instead of using RAF aircraft, not delivering it to the allied side !