No second language no promotion
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 33,061
Received 2,934 Likes
on
1,250 Posts
Surely for French all you need is the abilty to shout "come back" or "put your hands down" very loudly.
Registered User **
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Botswana & Greece
Age: 68
Posts: 940
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As an AT and airline pilot one had to communicate with hundreds of different nationalities on the radio. Never had a problem. Does this make me a multi-national communicator?
Must confess we did have a problem going into Moscow once when they said the airport was closed. Luckily the nav spoke the old lingo and it was established that they were closed due to a VIP arrival, which was us. Came in useful then.
I am not bad at American. I mean, come on, if you say something like pavement or rubbish bin they have no idea what you are talking about you have to translate.
Must confess we did have a problem going into Moscow once when they said the airport was closed. Luckily the nav spoke the old lingo and it was established that they were closed due to a VIP arrival, which was us. Came in useful then.
I am not bad at American. I mean, come on, if you say something like pavement or rubbish bin they have no idea what you are talking about you have to translate.
I don't see how the RAF could impose this when they care so little about language training unless it is required for a post and articulated as such in the formal job specs.
I am currently sitting out in yet another patch of sand having been pinged a luxurious 6 weeks prior to going. When I queried the entry on the job spec that said Arabic and French desirable and said that other than GCSE French over 20 years ago I couldn't speak a word of either, the reply came back don't worry it probably won't matter.
If that's our corporate attitude to language trg, I simply don't see how they can enforce it. And if they try to make you pay for it yourself through ELCs (my last post expected instructors to do a PGCE for the benefit of the establishment, with the bill paid for by the individual!) I can see people demonstrating some very choice Anglo-Saxon language skills.
I am currently sitting out in yet another patch of sand having been pinged a luxurious 6 weeks prior to going. When I queried the entry on the job spec that said Arabic and French desirable and said that other than GCSE French over 20 years ago I couldn't speak a word of either, the reply came back don't worry it probably won't matter.
If that's our corporate attitude to language trg, I simply don't see how they can enforce it. And if they try to make you pay for it yourself through ELCs (my last post expected instructors to do a PGCE for the benefit of the establishment, with the bill paid for by the individual!) I can see people demonstrating some very choice Anglo-Saxon language skills.
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: London
Age: 50
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jimlad/typhoon 93,
I suspect this has come out of Andover as an Army vice MOD Centre initiative. It fits with the Army policy for contingency and farming out areas of the globe to the Brigades. I will be surprised if the RAF adopt it to the extent indicated in the article. I struggle to see it as a go/no go item on the Sqn Ldr Boards.
Having had some exposure to our mil linguist folks they fall into two general groups namely the Int types for whom it is a full time job and the Op types who do it as a hobby or a one off. General speaking those that take the later path suffer in terms of promotion in their core field, especially officers. There are also very few of them. I once trawled Defence for a Somali speaker. I found just one.
I suspect this has come out of Andover as an Army vice MOD Centre initiative. It fits with the Army policy for contingency and farming out areas of the globe to the Brigades. I will be surprised if the RAF adopt it to the extent indicated in the article. I struggle to see it as a go/no go item on the Sqn Ldr Boards.
Having had some exposure to our mil linguist folks they fall into two general groups namely the Int types for whom it is a full time job and the Op types who do it as a hobby or a one off. General speaking those that take the later path suffer in terms of promotion in their core field, especially officers. There are also very few of them. I once trawled Defence for a Somali speaker. I found just one.
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: South Africa
Age: 87
Posts: 1,329
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Way back in 1957, all commissioned ranks at the the RAF Liaison Party, Istres, we had 4 of them, had to be fluent in French. This was not a per-requisite for us Erks, but we had a Cpl Clerk, who had A-Level in French and he was the official unit interpreter and was paid about 1/6 a day extra.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Holly Beach, Louisiana
Posts: 916
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The US Military tries to expand beyond "American".....although "English" as a second language is pretty much a common course in all of our Public Schools grade K-12. (EASL is really trying to teach Illegal Immigrants to speak English).
Monterey - Language Capital of the World
Monterey - Language Capital of the World
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Middle England
Posts: 546
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All part of the push to develop Army dominance of the new 'Defence Engagement' career stream, something that has been neglected of late. There is a serious effort to move the Defence Attaches away from being last tour 'thank yous' to being rather more professional and trained for the post.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Middle England
Posts: 546
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You do understand that the MOD is the same as the British Army don't you? I am sick of people trying to make out that somehow the evil nasty MOD is different from the brave plucky Armed Forces. Please do some basic research in future.
Get off your high horse.....
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
If you want a second language pick one for where you would like a posting.
OC 206, great bloke, and a pilot, was told he had reached the pinnacle of his career.
Then one day, phone call, did he speak Africaans?
He did, wad promoted and posted as air atache.
OC 206, great bloke, and a pilot, was told he had reached the pinnacle of his career.
Then one day, phone call, did he speak Africaans?
He did, wad promoted and posted as air atache.
'Mongo', our Nav Radar on the Tin Triangle, had previously been a wing weapons officer in RAFG. If you've seen 'Blazing Saddles', you'll understand whence came his nickname! Quite a hooting, roaring chap he'd had his own unique way of conversing with ze Germans.
"Speak to them in English. If that doesn't work, shout at them in English. Nothing the buggers like more than being yelled at - they appreciate it as it reminds them of the old days. They'll stand to attention, click heels say 'Jawohl' and get on with it sharpish!".
Somehow I don't think Mongo ended up on the diplomatic circle. Grand chap though - and an excellent, tactical operator!
"Speak to them in English. If that doesn't work, shout at them in English. Nothing the buggers like more than being yelled at - they appreciate it as it reminds them of the old days. They'll stand to attention, click heels say 'Jawohl' and get on with it sharpish!".
Somehow I don't think Mongo ended up on the diplomatic circle. Grand chap though - and an excellent, tactical operator!
Last edited by BEagle; 3rd Sep 2014 at 19:42.
There used to be....
.... at the Bristol Uni Extramural Dept for French, a ferocious lady called Miette Day who took NO prisoners. On a w/e refresher course it started at arrival at 1700 and she did the interrogation to separate sheep from goats. Quick meal then into class until 10. When I announced that I'd been on the road for 10 hours to get there and I was off before the bar shut she demanded to know "Are you a trade unionist??".
Sat morning (early) one on one with her to listen to last night's recorded French radio news in 4 min bursts, "Translate! Go!" until one's brain hurt, then into normal class.
Sun morning at the instant translate part she told an RN 21/2 to go outside with his hangover until he was a normal human being again and to stop being a naughty man and NOT go drinking with these RAF trade unionists. But it sure as shot sharpened one's ability to translate under pressure.
Language training in the military ain't a sinecure. Two of my former bosses did it; one to do Arabic and the other Russian and both reported it was certainly no breeze. Don't jeer at it until you've tried it.
The Ancient Mariner
There must be others out there who did the language aptitude tests at N Luffenham. That was no breeze either.
My bet is the army wants Arabic and Farsi.
Sat morning (early) one on one with her to listen to last night's recorded French radio news in 4 min bursts, "Translate! Go!" until one's brain hurt, then into normal class.
Sun morning at the instant translate part she told an RN 21/2 to go outside with his hangover until he was a normal human being again and to stop being a naughty man and NOT go drinking with these RAF trade unionists. But it sure as shot sharpened one's ability to translate under pressure.
Language training in the military ain't a sinecure. Two of my former bosses did it; one to do Arabic and the other Russian and both reported it was certainly no breeze. Don't jeer at it until you've tried it.
The Ancient Mariner
There must be others out there who did the language aptitude tests at N Luffenham. That was no breeze either.
My bet is the army wants Arabic and Farsi.
Last edited by Rossian; 3rd Sep 2014 at 18:57. Reason: and another thing
On the topic of language skills, I remember a story many years ago about a (non-military, sorry) incident in Ireland.
It seems that some hapless German tourist had knocked a local off his bike and was up in front of the beak. Only problem being that the German didn't speak either Irish or English, so sat there looking somewhat bemused.
The beak had an idea - "Would there be anyone here who might be speaking German?", he asked.
At which there was a shuffling noise and a somewhat scruffy looking member of the public shambled to his feet..."Oi do, sorr, that I do!".
The beak recognised him as Clancy (?), who often came into the public gallery to sleep off a skinful, particularly when it was raining - as it frequently does in that part of the world.
"Well now, Clancy, that's a surprise to be sure", said the beak. "So come down here if you would"
After a few minutes bouncing off the furniture, Clancy stood swaying unsteadily at the front of the courtroom.
"Now then, Clancy, would yer be askin' him his name?" asked the beak
"That I will, sorr", Clancy replied, before facing the German and announcing in his best cartoon Gestapo voice "YOU - VOT ISS YOUR NAME?"
At which the court fell about with laughter, the case was dismissed and Clancy was fined a couple of quid for his trouble.
I so hope that story was true!
It seems that some hapless German tourist had knocked a local off his bike and was up in front of the beak. Only problem being that the German didn't speak either Irish or English, so sat there looking somewhat bemused.
The beak had an idea - "Would there be anyone here who might be speaking German?", he asked.
At which there was a shuffling noise and a somewhat scruffy looking member of the public shambled to his feet..."Oi do, sorr, that I do!".
The beak recognised him as Clancy (?), who often came into the public gallery to sleep off a skinful, particularly when it was raining - as it frequently does in that part of the world.
"Well now, Clancy, that's a surprise to be sure", said the beak. "So come down here if you would"
After a few minutes bouncing off the furniture, Clancy stood swaying unsteadily at the front of the courtroom.
"Now then, Clancy, would yer be askin' him his name?" asked the beak
"That I will, sorr", Clancy replied, before facing the German and announcing in his best cartoon Gestapo voice "YOU - VOT ISS YOUR NAME?"
At which the court fell about with laughter, the case was dismissed and Clancy was fined a couple of quid for his trouble.
I so hope that story was true!
"Err no it isn't. The MOD is a Ministry in Whitehall which oversees the three services. There is a great distinction between a MOD centre led initiative and a British Army one that only affects the Army. "
Actually its remarkably simple - the MOD is the Department of State which comprises the many diverse parts of Defence. The problem I have is that many people seem to regard the Ministry as an entity separate from the Armed Forces, conveniently ignoring that they are one and the same entity.
Sorry its a hobby horse of mine, but I find a lot of the problems Defence has stems from a 'them and us' attitude which acts as if anything deemed 'bad' automatically comes from the MOD, while anything deemed good comes from the armed forces...
Also arguably there is no such thing as MOD Centre anymore, but HOCS, but thats a totally different debate...
Actually its remarkably simple - the MOD is the Department of State which comprises the many diverse parts of Defence. The problem I have is that many people seem to regard the Ministry as an entity separate from the Armed Forces, conveniently ignoring that they are one and the same entity.
Sorry its a hobby horse of mine, but I find a lot of the problems Defence has stems from a 'them and us' attitude which acts as if anything deemed 'bad' automatically comes from the MOD, while anything deemed good comes from the armed forces...
Also arguably there is no such thing as MOD Centre anymore, but HOCS, but thats a totally different debate...
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Closer than you think...
Age: 65
Posts: 390
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A reasonable idea, and considering the Army are more likely to be face to face with non-english language people on a daily basis while in theatre out of the three services while out patrolling or dealing with the local pop's reps. It could solve a lot of on the ground problems and goes a long way in hearts and minds.
I would include the RM and RAF Regt as having a similar face to face interaction as the Army in theatre
The Navy come second on the list while in port and doing boat/ship stop and search.
The RAF, in general I would have expected to interact on a daily basis with people who have some command of English, that is not to say you shouldnt try and learn the language but how often do you actually speak to the target on the ground before giving them the bad news?
Anyway, I digress, for the Army a second language is something that really should be introduced at Section Command level and not just Captain/Major. Complexity and depth of required knowledge can be increased in line with the rank structure and level of likely use.
I would include the RM and RAF Regt as having a similar face to face interaction as the Army in theatre
The Navy come second on the list while in port and doing boat/ship stop and search.
The RAF, in general I would have expected to interact on a daily basis with people who have some command of English, that is not to say you shouldnt try and learn the language but how often do you actually speak to the target on the ground before giving them the bad news?
Anyway, I digress, for the Army a second language is something that really should be introduced at Section Command level and not just Captain/Major. Complexity and depth of required knowledge can be increased in line with the rank structure and level of likely use.