F-16 low approach, Wadders.
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F-16 low approach, Wadders.
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Hit the deck !!
The Aviationist » [Video] Turkish F-16?s ultra low landing at Waddington Airshow
Hit the deck !!
The Aviationist » [Video] Turkish F-16?s ultra low landing at Waddington Airshow
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...looks impressive but does raise more than a few questions
Recall a similar antic on a sqn exchange some years back; the Belgian pilot concerned was asked to take himself and his jet back across the English Channel from whence he came.
Recall a similar antic on a sqn exchange some years back; the Belgian pilot concerned was asked to take himself and his jet back across the English Channel from whence he came.
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For those that haven't been there, what is or should be the normal height for an aircraft at that point ?
I gather from the Typhoon video that the runway starts straight after the fence.
I gather from the Typhoon video that the runway starts straight after the fence.
Last edited by 500N; 6th Jul 2014 at 20:10.
Those spotters are within the area of the undershoot that has red flashing lights on the road saying 'Stop when red lights show'
So what's the problem Chris kebab, SFCC?
So what's the problem Chris kebab, SFCC?
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Are you that are, seriously slating the pilot here!! What about the idiots in the undershoot. I have made my views clear about this matter in a thread in ATC Issues.
http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/543...n-airshow.html
http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/543...n-airshow.html
Bollocks. All my landings are low. Nothing gash, nothing wrong, getting low is something you have to do if you want to land. That fence is very close to the threshold at Waddo. If the pilot flies his approach to touch down on the numbers, that is where I would expect him to be.
So, if you think he's a **** or gash or anything else, you just explain why, what you think he was doing and how that doesn't fit with a proper landing. Remember, a lot of the ac that land at Waddo do so way beyond the piano keys (50 metres over the thrash old?).
So, if you think he's a **** or gash or anything else, you just explain why, what you think he was doing and how that doesn't fit with a proper landing. Remember, a lot of the ac that land at Waddo do so way beyond the piano keys (50 metres over the thrash old?).
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Courtney, The red wine must have got to you. Obviously, all of your landings were low, most at ground level I assume! 10 years ago while boltholed at Waddo there was a Mirage and then F15 that attacked the fence on the approach to RW21. OC Ops asked for advice on how to reduce the risk and was advised to displace the threshold. He was advised that "Fast Jet pilots" are taught to land "On the Numbers", not at the Instrument Touchdown Point.
As he was reluctant to do this the measure that was introduced was to paint the fence Red and White, as seen in video clip.
There is no doubt that the F16, Mirage, F15 pilots and many more were dragging-in their approach. Most fast jets are designed to land from a 3 degree approach. The last ac I knew about that needed a shallow approach was a F104.
I'm sure that we all remember that a shallow approach spreads the "landing footprint" over a larger area. Obviously in the case of a QWI this would not be true.
Maybe when Waddo gets a new, longer runway in 2015 the Piano Keys will be the correct distance from the beginning of the runway to avoid such close calls in he future.
As he was reluctant to do this the measure that was introduced was to paint the fence Red and White, as seen in video clip.
There is no doubt that the F16, Mirage, F15 pilots and many more were dragging-in their approach. Most fast jets are designed to land from a 3 degree approach. The last ac I knew about that needed a shallow approach was a F104.
I'm sure that we all remember that a shallow approach spreads the "landing footprint" over a larger area. Obviously in the case of a QWI this would not be true.
Maybe when Waddo gets a new, longer runway in 2015 the Piano Keys will be the correct distance from the beginning of the runway to avoid such close calls in he future.
I reckon it's around 640 ft from 'the numbers' to the A15 under the final approach path at Waddo:
Which means anyone intending to touch down on the numbers, if using a normal 2½° - 3° approach, should be no lower than 27-34 ft when clearing the near edge of the road (ex-QWIs can do triggernometry, so will know that this is 640 x tan (approach angle) - n'est ce pas, Courtney?).
Spotters hanging on the fence at Brize could often be deterred by a late-notice VC10 go-around. It took a bit of practice, but if you got the timing right you could call "Simulated runway incursion, GO AROUND!" to one's student and the gentle purr of 4 Conways at max chat would be achieved just as we passed the spotter.....
Which means anyone intending to touch down on the numbers, if using a normal 2½° - 3° approach, should be no lower than 27-34 ft when clearing the near edge of the road (ex-QWIs can do triggernometry, so will know that this is 640 x tan (approach angle) - n'est ce pas, Courtney?).
Spotters hanging on the fence at Brize could often be deterred by a late-notice VC10 go-around. It took a bit of practice, but if you got the timing right you could call "Simulated runway incursion, GO AROUND!" to one's student and the gentle purr of 4 Conways at max chat would be achieved just as we passed the spotter.....
Not disparaging you Dominator, it's just that we had a similar thread running a couple of years back I think in which 'fast jet pilots are taught to land on the numbers' came up, and it all got rather heated between some in the FJ community and some in the multi-engine community.
My 'hear we go' comment was just me getting ready for a re-run.
My 'hear we go' comment was just me getting ready for a re-run.
Fox3WMB,
Indeed - even more "impressive" viewed from the POV of spectators on the road:
Or this one:
Or this one:
Indeed - even more "impressive" viewed from the POV of spectators on the road:
Or this one:
Or this one:
Last edited by RAFEngO74to09; 6th Jul 2014 at 21:09.
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Having been a Fast Jet Pilot for nearly 40 years allows me some right to comment. There is no doubt that any pilot should understand his ac performance and be able to land at the "correct place". Performance is not only Max Rate and Min Radius.
Clearing a hedge/fence by 10 ft is clearly unacceptable in anyones language.
The majority of such approaches are due to misjudgement or "pilot error" of some type. If not, they either had a piss poor QFI/IP or are God Gifted (QWI)?!!!
Clearing a hedge/fence by 10 ft is clearly unacceptable in anyones language.
The majority of such approaches are due to misjudgement or "pilot error" of some type. If not, they either had a piss poor QFI/IP or are God Gifted (QWI)?!!!
Having been in and around FJs for quite some time, that angle isn't exactly unusual. I too remember the M2000 shaped undercarriage holes in the Waddo fence in the 90s after an ACMI mission.
The Manual of Aerodrome Design and Safeguarding requires the approach surface to miss the road by 4.5 metres. The civvy CAP168 requires a bit more at 4.8 metres (yes another whole 30cm!). That is aiming at the runway strip that starts 60m before the declared threshold; so that eats into the 640ft that BEagle has measured quite significantly! So at ~15ft over the heads of these numpties, I don't believe that the viper driver has broken any rules on his approach.
As for the idiots in the undershoot - ever heard of Charles Darwin? And as for the idiot waving his walking stick, well that just beggars belief and is typical of the type of numb-skull that will complain afterwards that they were nearly killed in the local rag.
The Manual of Aerodrome Design and Safeguarding requires the approach surface to miss the road by 4.5 metres. The civvy CAP168 requires a bit more at 4.8 metres (yes another whole 30cm!). That is aiming at the runway strip that starts 60m before the declared threshold; so that eats into the 640ft that BEagle has measured quite significantly! So at ~15ft over the heads of these numpties, I don't believe that the viper driver has broken any rules on his approach.
As for the idiots in the undershoot - ever heard of Charles Darwin? And as for the idiot waving his walking stick, well that just beggars belief and is typical of the type of numb-skull that will complain afterwards that they were nearly killed in the local rag.
Interesting to hear the aircrew perspective on this as always. From the other side I'm very familiar with the area (2 tours as RAFP at Waddo) and just wonder what the law is in relation to the people standing there. When an aircraft is on approach to that area the A15 red lights are activated (by ATC?) which clearly stop traffic, as they do on a railway crossing. But do they also act as an advisory for pedestrians that they should not be in the area. If I cross a railway crossing when the flashing red lights are activated then surely the risk and responsibility if I come to harm is on me as there were clear warning signs.