Another Compensation Award
OAB: two points, PMRAFNS retirement is set at 50 years where as a male Medical officer is 58, so therefore has 8 more years of productive service and this was not for position as SMO RAF, but as part of a tri service medical post.
I think some contributors to this thread are missing the point, perhaps obtusely. I think, and I hope, that we all believe in the maxim of 'best person for the job'. In this case, the tribunal has determined that the Gp Capt was the best person for the job, but has been descriminated against on the basis of gender. Physical fitness, or otherwise, is a separate issue.
I think we should be shocked, that well into the 21st Century, that sexism has reared its head again. Perhaps, having read some of the posts here, I should not have been surprised!
I think we should be shocked, that well into the 21st Century, that sexism has reared its head again. Perhaps, having read some of the posts here, I should not have been surprised!
Last edited by Whenurhappy; 7th May 2014 at 13:00.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 79
Posts: 7,809
Received 135 Likes
on
63 Posts
Having read the Tribunal report in its entirety (typos et al) it seems clear that the entire boarding process was pretty shambolic, and that the subsequent MoD administration left a great deal to be desired.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: East Anglia
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airpig.......
Thank you however for correcting me about the post they were completing for, it wasn't for the RAF's senior medical officer (SMO has an air of Stn Snr Med Offr which is why I didn't use that abbreviation) but for a similar tri-service role. I suspect said tri-service post has never been held by anybody other than a doctor?
I fail to see what relevance your comment about retirement age has to my post. Although, if Gp Capt Williams aged 54 (in 2013 according to the BBC report) applied for the 1* role in 2011, she would have been 51/52 and therefore past the retirement age you cite. Perhaps this had something to do with her not being selected. Afterall, the Med Services are/were making redundancies in which case it would be hard to justify her continuance when there was a suitably qualified candidate under retirement age. Apparently promotion at those levels is all to do which 'reach' and if she was on continuance or near retirement then she won't have had much 'reach'. Perhaps PMRAFNS has come inline with the rest of the RAF with a retirement age of 55?
For what its worth, I genuinely believe she was discriminated against, but not due to gender but due being a nurse.
Thank you however for correcting me about the post they were completing for, it wasn't for the RAF's senior medical officer (SMO has an air of Stn Snr Med Offr which is why I didn't use that abbreviation) but for a similar tri-service role. I suspect said tri-service post has never been held by anybody other than a doctor?
I fail to see what relevance your comment about retirement age has to my post. Although, if Gp Capt Williams aged 54 (in 2013 according to the BBC report) applied for the 1* role in 2011, she would have been 51/52 and therefore past the retirement age you cite. Perhaps this had something to do with her not being selected. Afterall, the Med Services are/were making redundancies in which case it would be hard to justify her continuance when there was a suitably qualified candidate under retirement age. Apparently promotion at those levels is all to do which 'reach' and if she was on continuance or near retirement then she won't have had much 'reach'. Perhaps PMRAFNS has come inline with the rest of the RAF with a retirement age of 55?
For what its worth, I genuinely believe she was discriminated against, but not due to gender but due being a nurse.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: WILTSHIRE
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Another Compensation Award
"Hang on, so this is a Gp Capt Nurse winning a case for not making to 1* instead of a Doctor? How on earth do we have Gp Capt Nurses in the first place? "Isn't that like putting a Loadie in charge of a station?"
Can't Hover:
May I suggest that you look for the last Commanding Officer of RAF Finningley:
"13 October 1995 to closure in November 1996 Wg Cdr M A Butler, B.A." before posting your comments.
LXXIV
Can't Hover:
May I suggest that you look for the last Commanding Officer of RAF Finningley:
"13 October 1995 to closure in November 1996 Wg Cdr M A Butler, B.A." before posting your comments.
LXXIV
LXXIV: We used to have a 1* as head of the PMRAFNS until the draw-down in the early 90s and at least a couple of Group Captains. With the draw-down all three services lost their 1* nursing posts.
When you think of the size of the PMRAFNS in the 90s we had six hospitals: Halton, Ely, Wroughton, Wegberg, Akrotiri and Nocturn Hall plus things like the present CCAST, RMCs and station medical centres which all had PMRAFNS personnel. In the hospitals, Matron was ranked as a Wing Commander. The service actually increased in size in 1980 when male nurses were moved from the Med Tech branch to the PMRAFNS, same happened when people were offered a move into the Grey Mafia(QARANC's) from the RAMC, and that was a much larger organisation due to TA Field Hospitals etc.
OAB: I suspect that no-one ever thought about equalising retirement ages in the past and have been caught out, but I do agree with your thought that this was a nurse vs doctor thing as I stated earlier and in fact the RAF have admitted as much.
When you think of the size of the PMRAFNS in the 90s we had six hospitals: Halton, Ely, Wroughton, Wegberg, Akrotiri and Nocturn Hall plus things like the present CCAST, RMCs and station medical centres which all had PMRAFNS personnel. In the hospitals, Matron was ranked as a Wing Commander. The service actually increased in size in 1980 when male nurses were moved from the Med Tech branch to the PMRAFNS, same happened when people were offered a move into the Grey Mafia(QARANC's) from the RAMC, and that was a much larger organisation due to TA Field Hospitals etc.
OAB: I suspect that no-one ever thought about equalising retirement ages in the past and have been caught out, but I do agree with your thought that this was a nurse vs doctor thing as I stated earlier and in fact the RAF have admitted as much.
Last edited by air pig; 6th May 2014 at 16:18.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: 23, Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
Age: 68
Posts: 3,115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Isn't that like putting a Loadie in charge of a station?"
You also have non aircrew commanding stations. Female non flying Group Captain at Wittering when it was a flying station.
Last edited by air pig; 6th May 2014 at 18:02.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 79
Posts: 7,809
Received 135 Likes
on
63 Posts
And, in this case, Air Sec 1 (now a CS, formerly Air Cdre) is my old mate Spot Fuller ... An ATCO.
Best man/woman for the job ... Regardless of the shape of the sweater. But I do think that 'reach' was possibly the dominant factor in the decision, rather than gender.
Best man/woman for the job ... Regardless of the shape of the sweater. But I do think that 'reach' was possibly the dominant factor in the decision, rather than gender.
When I was a young rockape the Commandant General of the RAF Regiment was a two star pilot, and the most senior rock was a one star. Subsequent commandants general included some regiment officers who had made it to two star, with a further sprinking of pilots. Nowadays I believe the post has been reduced to a one star job.
Similarly an old pilot mate of mine finished his career as Provost Marshal, as good an example of poacher turned gamekeeper that I ever knew!
Plenty of precedents for non-specialists being put in charge.
Similarly an old pilot mate of mine finished his career as Provost Marshal, as good an example of poacher turned gamekeeper that I ever knew!
Plenty of precedents for non-specialists being put in charge.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Temporarily missing from the Joe Louis Arena
Posts: 2,131
Received 27 Likes
on
16 Posts
Plenty of precedents for non-specialists being put in charge
(This isn't aimed at you TTN, more a general point) I think perhaps the underlying problem with this case (which has been aptly displayed in this thread) is the continual perception by many that us nurses work 'for' doctors (and are therefore subordinate to them) rather than alongside them.
Arguably the only nurses who could be considered as working directly 'for' doctors are practice nurses within GP surgeries, but this circumstance is purely administrative.
the underlying problem with this case ... is the continual perception by many that us nurses work 'for' doctors (and are therefore subordinate to them) rather than alongside them.
Mrs TTN (retired midwife) wants your address Roland - she has a few choice words for you !
Seriously it is quite obvious that there will be times in all fields of medicine when a doctor's skills are required, and a good nurse will know when that is, but nurses do not work "for" doctors but for their nursing superiors (with of course the constant interference by administrators)!
(that's "we nurses" btw Stacker).
Seriously it is quite obvious that there will be times in all fields of medicine when a doctor's skills are required, and a good nurse will know when that is, but nurses do not work "for" doctors but for their nursing superiors (with of course the constant interference by administrators)!
(that's "we nurses" btw Stacker
).
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Temporarily missing from the Joe Louis Arena
Posts: 2,131
Received 27 Likes
on
16 Posts
Well that at least explains why the NHS is such a disaster area nowadays
The saying "nurses are there to stop doctors killing people" is based on a fair slice of truth!
(that's "we nurses" btw Stacker ).
HS, that's why August was always known as the 'killing fields' when the new house officers were let loose on the wards. Nurses stop doctors killing you more times than you would care to know.
Some years ago the doctors in California went on strike and the nurses got on with the job, surprise surprise the death rate fell.
Some years ago the doctors in California went on strike and the nurses got on with the job, surprise surprise the death rate fell.
