Another Compensation Award

[BEagle]

Some years ago, I was in charge of recruiting at a large UAS (University Air Squadron, nothing to do with drones). The first sift of applications from aspirant candidates was made by someone else, who checked them for acceptability within the HQ UAS rules, before the candidates were called forward for interview.

I found a pile of applications in his office, all of which were from girls. When I queried why they'd been separated, he told me "Oh, we've got our quota of female applications - we're allowed 10%".

I told him that we were now in an age of equality and to put them back into the main pile of candidates. After much grumbling and sulking, he did so - and at least one of the girls who would otherwise have faced his highly questionable 'gender ban' made it through the interview process and went on to become an excellent squadron member.

That was some 25 years ago, so I'm amazed that this case of clear discrimination ever went to a tribunal - MoD should have known that they could never win. Good to see that justice prevailed and I hope this lady enjoys her compensation payment.

[Tankertrashnav]

When I first met Mrs TTN she was a nursing officer in the QARANC - a midwife as well, as it happens. In those days all female qualified nurses (SRN or SCM) were commissioned when they entered any of the three nursing services. Men on the other hand could not enter as officers, and served as NCOs in spite of holding the identical SRN qualification (there were no male midwifes in those days).

Funny how the situation has turned 180 and it's now the female nurses who appear to be disadvantaged

[dctyke]

One question, how the hell did she (and quite a few others) manage to pass their annual fitness tests? In a time when other folks are been thrown out with nothing for failing, cronyism s rife further up the food chain.

[BEagle]

Why do people always dredge up the irrelevance of the fitness test when someone in uniform who doesn't have the physique of a racing snake is photographed?

dctyke, do you really think that this lady lacked sufficient fitness for the work she did?

[Wrathmonk]

Not exactly another compo claim.

Click here - BBC report dated 25th June 2013 and PPRuNe thread here.

I guess it has taken all this time to settle appeals, confirm amounts etc.

[Martin the Martian]

What I find from this thread is just how little people know about what nurses actually do. I spent many years as a nurse in the NHS and it's more than just dishing out pills and wiping bums. And, as far as those who nurse in the military, talk to those who have spent time with the MERT/IRT teams.

wg13_dummy:

Anyone, including a taxi driver, can deliver a baby as long as everything goes well and there are no complications. When there are complications... well, midwives don't spend four years in training for nothing, or do you think that your taxi driver knows how to cope with breech birth, dystocia, cephalo-pelvic disproportion, haemorrhage, foetal distress or any one of a hundred and one other problems that can occur in even the most normal labour?

dctyke:

I've worked under a great number of senior nurses in the past, some good, some not so good. Those who bring their experience, compassion and leadership to the party have a damn sight more to give than whether they can run fast enough, quite frankly. And when the emergency bell rings they'll still be there as quick as anyone else.

And quite why the RAF thinks that doctors but not nurses can be promoted to 1* rank is beyond me. I cannot think of anywhere in the health sector (private or public) where such a blinkered and outdated view still exists, and in light of that fact that both professions are equally involved in MERT/IRT taskings it is even more incredible.

[air pig]

Having read this thread, and being an ex PM, when I was around the the Matron in Chief/Director Nursing Services (MiC/DNS) was a one star rank, this was dropped when we contracted in size after Options for Change. As one of the early commissioned male PMs, we were looked upon as being 'invaders' into the cosy PMRAFNS as previously all male nurse who were commissioned were in the Med tech branch. In fact the PMRAFNS of all three services had the first male MiC/DNS in Bob Williams who was Matron at Wroughton and then eventually made Air Commodore.

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...l-article.html

Fiona McGlynn is now a Squadron Leader.

Looks like the RAF medical hierarchy have dropped a big clanger in this case, would any aircrew suffer, and we have heard of the many exploits of Air Commodore Joan Hopkins in the Fighter Control Branch, by the same bar to promotion, I think not. This maybe a case of Doctors trying to limit nurses progression and not having a nurse as their 'boss'.

[Tankertrashnav]

Why do people always dredge up the irrelevance of the fitness test when someone in uniform who doesn't have the physique of a racing snake is photographed

My son, a former REME corporal, has left the army with few regrets after having been passed over for promotion by those who impressed the hierarchy by their participation in sport, cross country etc, in spite of being indifferent tradesmen. I should add he never failed an annual fitness test. He is now doing a very similar job to his last army one - the difference being that he is earning about 50% more and is not being badgered to go and play sport for the greater glory of the company!

Since I left over 30 years ago it would appear to me that the obsession with physical fitness in the armed forces has become a fetish, to the point that it trumps trade efficiency.

[gr4techie]

I have always considered the RAF's promotion system very very subjective. In my experience the reporting officers comments will be based on how much they like you as a person and the joke of how often you've gone and played golf with them?

The problem with hierarchy systems is those at the top tend to promote people who support them in their current position and not necessarily the best person for that promotion vacancy. Do they want to promote people who will show them up and who will criticise their decisions? Or do they want a yes man?

What should happen is an objective promotion exam. This could be done in the format of a theory exam and practical, for example leadership and management exercises. This would prove you are indeed the best person for the job.

There's a successful software company that has an interesting way of working, it has no rank structure. Because of this, all the employees are free to comment and criticise each other work and contribute ideas. Have a read and see what you think of their way of work?http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/10...ook_LowRes.pdf

P.S. Tankertrashnav. I read your comment with interest. For years technical trades have been underpaid compared to what we earn in civvy street. I don't know of anyone who has PVR'd and then been worse off, the NE oil and gas industry has caused a manning crisis at one RAF unit. However, "mannings" inability to differentiate between experienced, skilled, qualified manpower PVR'ing and a 17 year old kid straight out of school joining the RAF a few months ago, has lead them to deny this.
On the point of fitness tests... The standard we have to get to is not high in the grand scheme of things. It's relatively low compared to what other people achieve. I completely disagree with the pass mark for females... I consider myself very fit and in athletic competitions, you still find females beating 1000's of men. It is a myth that females can not be as fit as men.

[MPN11]

I long advocated an element of "upward reporting" by senior subordinates to be used as a "tie breaker" by promotion boards. Sadly, 'buttock nuzzling' is the preferred method, with all the potential deficiencies (and others) that gr4techie refers to.

My career came to a halt after my last promotion, when my new boss admitted, on arrival interview, that he hadn't wanted me in the post as we had 'history' as JOs. My annual reports reflected that, of course. The lights went out, and I started looking for the best exit strategy.

C'est la vie.

[Haraka]

Some years ago, I was in charge of recruiting at a large UAS (University Air Squadron, nothing to do with drones). The first sift of applications from aspirant candidates was made by someone else, who checked them for acceptability within the HQ UAS rules, before the candidates were called forward for interview.

I found a pile of applications in his office, all of which were from girls. When I queried why they'd been separated, he told me "Oh, we've got our quota of female applications - we're allowed 10%".

I told him that we were now in an age of equality and to put them back into the main pile of candidates. After much grumbling and sulking, he did so - and at least one of the girls who would otherwise have faced his highly questionable 'gender ban' made it through the interview process and went on to become an excellent squadron member.

That was some 25 years ago, so I'm amazed that this case of clear discrimination ever went to a tribunal - MoD should have known that they could never win. Good to see that justice prevailed and I hope this lady enjoys her compensation payment.

Do remember folks that, despite our banter, many of us "Cold War Loafers" were actively fighting for our sister officers' rights before most of you were born.

[vascodegama]

Not sure where I stand on this one-45 pages is a bit too long when the pub is open. I was a bit confused by the statement that nurses retire at 50 and doctors at 58. Was also surprised by the statement that the RAF had had no female 1star before 2012.

[dctyke]

Why do people always dredge up the irrelevance of the fitness test when someone in uniform who doesn't have the physique of a racing snake is photographed?

dctyke, do you really think that this lady lacked sufficient fitness for the work she did?

Beagle, I'm sure she did her work really well however RAF regulations are getting junior ranks thrown out even though they are 'sufficient' fitness to do their work. Are you saying stated RAF regulations do not apply in her or other senior officers cases?

[air pig]

That would have been a surprise to Air Commodore Hopkinson and the many 1* PMRANFS Air Commodores.

[thing]

My son, a former REME corporal, has left the army with few regrets after having been passed over for promotion by those who impressed the hierarchy by their participation in sport, cross country etc, in spite of being indifferent tradesmen.

Twas ever thus in the RAF too. I left almost 20 years ago but it seemed to me that it didn't matter how good you were at your job, promotion depended on being NCO i/c the bloody frog sexing club or some such nonsense. I went off and did an HND Electronic Engineering off my own bat, mainly out of interest and for future employment prospects but also thinking it might impress. It didn't. Should have stuck to frogs.

However my efforts I'm glad to say were far more appreciated in civvy street...

[cornish-stormrider]

I saw the writing on the wall after my last appraisal in the engine bay.
an exercise in thesauras (sp) use and waffle to say - hmmm not bad, could be better, too early to tell if this oik is CPL material....

FFS why not just say that and save the hrs wasted.
I'll not pretend life out is rosy but i do enjoy it more.

I completely fail to see the modern militarys obsession with the running up and down test. it is pretty pointless. if they are so bothered about it then up the manning and give people time to enjoy things other than getting hammered - oh wait,

As to the point of this thread - good, I'm glad she won.
If you are unable to pick the best person for the job due to sex, colour, faith or as a result of them being a hunchbacked dwarf with a broad cornish accent and an arse the size of a pit pony then you dont deserve to be in the position of leadership....

[Biggus]

I find it quite ironic when some people say that any mention of the fitness test is irrelevant on this thread.

What is the whole point of this thread - discrimination!

The lady was discriminated against, won her case and was duly compensated. Totally correct.

What has that got to do with the fitness test? Well, some people (after the prescribed number of tests/remedial/re-tests - and being assessed by the medics as capable of taking the test) are being discharged from the RAF for repeatedly failing the fitness test - that is a fact.

If (and it's a big if) not everyone who fails to meet the criteria (after the prescribed...........) is being discharged, then that represents a form of discrimination as real, loss of livelihood, etc, and valid to those involved on the wrong end as this case of sexual discrimination.

If the lady in question didn't pass her fitness test (and I'm not saying she didn't) and was still serving than she had been subject to positive discrimination in simply retaining her job.

Someone implied the more senior your rank the more likely you are to escape the ultimate sanction for failing the fitness test - personally I wouldn't know.

Tell me, is any one form of discrimination, sexual, racial, etc more significant than another? Surely they're all as bad as each other!

[5 Forward 6 Back]

This thread is pretty amazing. People really ought to spend the 20-30 mins it takes to read the tribunal judgement.

Comments like "some doris sprog-catcher" are terrible. She was OC of the RCDM Clinical Unit and then Standing Joint Commander (Medicine), putting her in charge of the military part of the QE University Hospital in Birmingham and Headley Court, which is hardly a small role.

In a 2-minute scan through the tribunal, you can see that she was consistently written up as a remarkable, A- graded, high achiever with "high" recommends for promotion and comments like "ready for 1* NOW" and "her excellent leadership and management qualities and her Role 4 expertise make her a must for the Joint Cmd DMG post" on her reports.

Then you get to the bit where an AVM picks another candidate because he was a doctor and was in his own command chain, based on no more evidence than the job titles of the 3 candidates and his own knowledge of one of them.

Then he starts saying that doctors are better suited to a role that no longer requires direct medical contact with any patients, and when asked why, or asked why strategic medical positions within the Army are held by nurses and the Surgeon General of the US Army is a female nurse but the RAF won't accept that, he has no answers.

Those saying that people with less seniority than them have been promoted ahead of them in the past have a point; except where the specific Air Rank Promotions Board that she was boarded on stated in its TORs that "when a choice has to be made between 2 officers of broadly equal merit the older, or more senior should be preferred."

It showed up a lot of interesting flaws in the promotions and appointments system. She was evidently an excellent officer, completely in the right, and thoroughly deserves her compensation.

All of us should be wary of the comments made about how the MOD was evasive, obstructive, and straight out refused to find or provide certain bits of information.

[HTB]

With a rather pessimistic view, I thought that our military medical establishment had been greatly reduced; probably engengered by the media slant when reporting the treatment of badly injured service personnel returning from current operational theatres. Thus I wondered why the need for a relatively high number of starred officers for a reduced element (bearing in mind that historically when RAFH Nocton Hall was in full swing - 740 beds, with a commensurately large staff - the station commander and senior surgeon were Group Captains).

I guess part of the answer is that the medics always seemed to be in a higher rank than their corresponding operational and support colleagues - probably because they had to undergo 4-5 years specialised training in human plumbing, electrics structural science, etc, unlike aircrew, for instance, who require only a few weeks to reach their exalted status.

Anyway, back to the topic, discrimination of any type = reason for redress (compensation), something MoD and the services seem not to learn from experience. To sort of answer my first point, this from a uk.gov website:

The DMS has:

• over 7,000 regular DMS personnel
• 15 Regional Rehabilitation Units (RRUs) across the UK and Germany
• 5 Ministry of Defence Hospital Units (MDHU) embedded into NHS acute trusts
• the Royal Centre for Defence Medicine (RCDM) in Birmingham
• 15 military run Departments of Community Mental Health (DCMH) in the UK with 5 DCMHs at the major permanent overseas bases
• the DMS provides healthcare to about 258,000 people

It seems to be in good health, numbers-wise (although the site doesn't expand on whether the hospital units are wholly service, or if they are embedded in civilian hospitals). There is also mention of a number of dental support units across the operating sphere, again no mention of service/civilian provision.

So maybe some * officers are needed (but in common with other arms of the services, probaly at a disproportionately high ratio).

As to the requirement for the fitness test, I think the age for a reduced version is 45 (about the same time as biannual ECGs kick in for aircrew - might be a bit earlier, memory fails me). The last fitness test I did consisted of cycling on an exercise bike for a few minutes while connected to a heart rate monitor and a grip test where the combined left and right hand squeeze provided the required result (which was just about attainable with one hand - if you had largeish hands). So not a great challenge there for either sex.

Having shot themselves in the foot, I wonder if the instigators of the discrimination enjoyed treatment under the DMS, or if they had to use NHS/private treatment...

Mister B

[Once A Brat]

...Wow, what an interesting thread, it meanders here and there so I thought I might as well add my tuppenth.


1. The RAF operates a merit based rather than a seniority based promotion system so the female Gp Capt's seniority is irrelevant provided the male Gp Capt had met the minimum seniority for promotion.


2. The female Gp Capt would have been ineligible for promotion had she not passed her fitness test so we have to assume that she had since the alternative would mean that Manning were negligent in the applying their own rules fairly and that would never happen?


3. Having read the judgement, I both agree and disagree - She was discriminated against, but not because she was female but, I suspect, because she was a nurse.


Unfortunately at that level, your original branch has a lot of sway as to your employment. Prior to Simon Bryant's appointment I would have said CAS will always be a pilot, there are posts which will always be aircrew, engineers or police and the senior medical officer in the RAF is likely to always be a doctor.


However, she saw an opportunity, played the sex discrimination card and is now £500k better off, but in doing so probably put true gender equality back 10years as Manning will now be scared not to promote marginal female candidates just in case of a repeat tribunal.