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Air Cadets grounded?

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Air Cadets grounded?

Old 25th Feb 2016, 13:26
  #1701 (permalink)  
 
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Just because they are going to Syerston doesn't mean they will be coming back from Syerston..................
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Old 25th Feb 2016, 14:32
  #1702 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by POBJOY View Post
As i heard it from am impeccable source the winches did not really need replacing but are going to be replaced by a 'smart winch' because on paper it leaves less to operator 'input',and provides some income for the winch company.
As many on here will know a winch is as complicated as a motorised fishing reel,if fact less complicated.The basic 'end product' has not changed and was yet another task readily undertaken for decades by young staff cadets many of whom had no driving licence.
On the MB twin drum there was still a choice of gears,and a 3rd gear launch on a windless day would not work.
Having said that the driver would know what aircraft he was launching and the approx wind strength.He would then consult a very complicated multi functional onboard computer and operate as required when given suitable signals.
As each computer was tailored to individual parameters the drivers took them home with them for safe keeping.The driver also had to remember to turn off the fuel when finished to avoid it draining into the oil sump which would then need draining and refilling with OMD11O. As the drain plug was enormous (about 36mm) it was not a size in most peoples car tool kit.It was of course down to the staff cadet who had an old VW Beetle and serviced it himself that could arrange this vital tool if ever required. The paperwork and documentation for all the aforementioned 'winch operation' was less than a A4 sheet and it worked.No operation has been improved by making it more complicated than required, but it is a good way of spending taxpayers money.
Your impeccable source sounds like they hadn't been near an MVG winch for a while! Of the 8 Viking Squadrons some had to stop flying prior to the great pause because of an inability to get a serviceable winch.

If you did have a winch the chance of having 4 or more drums working was unlikely due to lack of spare parts.
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Old 25th Feb 2016, 15:30
  #1703 (permalink)  
 
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Tingger

Pobjoy is correct for the TWIN DRUM Winch which preceded the MVG 6 drum winch (and obviously you )

You are correct with regard to your comments on the MVG for which it was beginning to get hard to get spares for since MVG ceased trading. I also felt that since the MVG was not a mainstream bit of RAF kit the MT fitters never really got to grips with it as they only saw it a few times a year..................

WRT to your comments though in the end ACCGS had spare MVG's because there were fewer and fewer Winch Launch schools operating against establishment so I am not convinced about the 'Pause before the Pause' argument - sounds like someone at the centre fobbing you off as they would have to arrange a low loader to move it...............

Arc
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Old 25th Feb 2016, 17:14
  #1704 (permalink)  
 
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That pause before the pause definitely happened when the only serviceable spare winch "fell" off the low loader and broke it's back.
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Old 25th Feb 2016, 18:13
  #1705 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by A and C View Post
It is a bit of both, the ATC will always attract the more adventurous but they tend to bring others along with them.

The ATC develops positive character in young people of all abilities, the flying is a recruiting hook but the confidence and self esteem that flying solo gives along with the sence of responsibility is a tool for building responsible adults.

The actions reported from Stockport show how the skills developed in the ATC have a positive impact in society at large, this was well understood Mrs Thatcher when she considerably boosted the cadet forces budget.

Finally I am sure that along with the rest of this forums contributors I would like to congratulate the two cadets from Stockport for their actions.
Is it a bit of both? Did you look at the sort of school those young men are going to? It's the sort of school that prides itself on developing 'positive character in young people of all abilities' and of course it has a lot longer with it's pupils than the ATC do.
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Old 25th Feb 2016, 18:19
  #1706 (permalink)  
 
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MVG Winches

Ah so they could not even keep the winches properly serviced.
Must have been manna from heaven when they grounded the fleet in 2014 as it saved another scandal of u/s winches stopping flying.
Good news for those of looking for a cheap winch when they come up for disposal,i mean, who will want one!!!
Having said that there was nothing wrong with the MB twin drum that a 're-power' for the new ships could not have sorted.

If Winkle Brown had been running ATC gliding we would have had mini rockets pods by now,and queue's of Cadets wanting 'another launch'.
Having said that the Staff Cadets would no doubt have been tempted to see how many were needed to get a LR through the 60 barrier,(early LR i mean).
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Old 25th Feb 2016, 18:26
  #1707 (permalink)  
 
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MVG Winches

....and if there was engine or transmission problems with the MVG winches none of those 6 drums would have been available!! I suspect quite a number of flying days have been lost because of this since their introduction.

Hence I suspect, that each (surviving) VGS will now get two of the new Skylaunch winches, just like we used to have two twin drum winches. As they say.."what goes around..."
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Old 25th Feb 2016, 18:52
  #1708 (permalink)  
 
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Winch

Some of you gents need to stop living in the past and quit moaning all the time. The new Skylaunch winch is significantly better and safer than any previous winch the Air Cadet organisation has ever been equipped with. Oh and by the way it comes equipped with plastic rope rather than steel cable - no doubt this will give you something else to moan about?
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Old 25th Feb 2016, 18:54
  #1709 (permalink)  
 
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What surprised me about Eric Brown's list of types was how few gliders were on it, and nothing from the modern era e.g. a Slingsby Vega for example. I wonder what he would have made of flying 500km in something like an ASH25 with a 60:1 glide ratio even at getting on for 80 knots? The back seat pilot gets a stunning view of the flexible wings doing their thing...
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Old 25th Feb 2016, 22:51
  #1710 (permalink)  
 
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Winkle Brown Gliders

Eric Brown really 'rated' his gliding flights in the ME 163 Komet (plus his hot one)
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Old 26th Feb 2016, 05:25
  #1711 (permalink)  
 
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Cats five

The educational establishment that I went to was crap............. When I was a CI with a local ATC unit the schools in the area had not improved.

I am sure that the ATC unit I was with kept more than a few young people out of prison by inspiring them, rather than the school that seemed to put them in a box marked factory fodder.

If the nations education system has improved I am pleased, but the product may have archived academic goals but seems to still lack life skills, something that the cadet forces do well.

A well funded cadet force is an investment in people that is priceless for the nation.
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Old 26th Feb 2016, 07:56
  #1712 (permalink)  
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Ref winches....


I say bring back the twin drum Eagles!


Hours of fun teaching people to use them...you certainly learned all about clutch control 'driving' one of those!

No need for practice launch failures....you got so many real ones!


Those lovely after flying (or pre flying on a windy/cloudy/wet morning) hours spent retying knots.


...And a few other antics I couldn't possibly comment on!
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Old 26th Feb 2016, 09:20
  #1713 (permalink)  
 
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Cable DI's

It is not entirely true to say there was no H&S culture in the old days.
When instructing new S-Cadets on the chopping of cable to retape knots i always told them to 'blink' just before the axe made contact.
Not too early so it missed your fingers.
No goggles, no gloves, and no eye injuries.

Then there was the demonstration of 'drum brake fade' when the pressure was on to get the cable 'in quick' so a pair could be sent back to the launch point.

With the canvas parachute 'sailing' along at a few feet and getting rather close the picture on the winch drivers face when he closed the throttle and pushed the clutch/brake but all to no avail as the brake drum expanded and there was the unmistakable sound of the 'parachute through the rollers' followed by some very metal to metal noises.
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Old 26th Feb 2016, 09:26
  #1714 (permalink)  
 
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I had an interesting meeting at the RIAT Hangar Party a couple of years back, a collegue and I got talking (with much beer ) to the Irish CASA crew ,great bunch of guys but one didn't really mix and sat back.
The crew got up to get some food the quiet one then came over and said to my mate "your RAF(VR)T" "Yes", "You are Air Cadet staff" "Yes" "You're L****" big look of shock!
Conversation followed , the airman was from West Belfast (where he was from I probably knew the family as I was stationed there for ten years) and joined a local Sqn with one of his mates from a school outside the area, loved the experience and on leaving school applied to join the RAF, two problems one "the boys" called round and threatened to shoot him if he continued on with this , two uncle was a senior Provo so security clearance was not going to happen. As a result of this he joined the IAC and he put it all down to the ATC as he said most of his "mates" from West Belfast ended up as joyriders etc. The ATC gave him something to aim for that otherwise he wouldn't have thought about and he recognised my mate straight away as he had been with him on several cadet activities .
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Old 29th Feb 2016, 23:08
  #1715 (permalink)  
 
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Latest rumour is to expect news between 7th of March and Good Friday. Starting to grow tired off the slippage of new news now...

The kids really do need some positive news as we approach the end of year 2 of no air cadet gliding.

The B Word
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Old 1st Mar 2016, 05:08
  #1716 (permalink)  
 
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Does the rumour say which year?!!!!
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Old 1st Mar 2016, 07:09
  #1717 (permalink)  
 
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B word

It is more than a bit difficult for the VGS management to say much when they continue to be so badly let down by the holders of the support and type certificate contracts who use technical paperwork to cover their lack of ability to support the recovery.

As I have said before they are between a rock and a hard place, if they fire them ( may be they would like to do this ) then no work gets done untill new contractors get up to speed and if they keep them on very little gets done.

So they have chosen a middle ground with the Vikings, another contractor is doing the physical work but still bound by the legacy contractors and type certificate holders for parts and technical data.

It would seem to me that they are setting up for contractor change but this has to happen at a rate that the industry can cope with and avoid getting into a legal mess by letting things run until the end of existing contracts.
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Old 4th Mar 2016, 12:15
  #1718 (permalink)  
 
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The waiting for information is .......

Saw this on another forum and thought it may help to lighten the situation while we wait for some news..

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Old 4th Mar 2016, 21:29
  #1719 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Arclite01 View Post
Tingger

Pobjoy is correct for the TWIN DRUM Winch which preceded the MVG 6 drum winch (and obviously you )

You are correct with regard to your comments on the MVG for which it was beginning to get hard to get spares for since MVG ceased trading. I also felt that since the MVG was not a mainstream bit of RAF kit the MT fitters never really got to grips with it as they only saw it a few times a year..................

WRT to your comments though in the end ACCGS had spare MVG's because there were fewer and fewer Winch Launch schools operating against establishment so I am not convinced about the 'Pause before the Pause' argument - sounds like someone at the centre fobbing you off as they would have to arrange a low loader to move it...............
Arc
I've just picked up this Re the MVG winch, as I looked after a VGS equipped with the MVG I can say with all honesty that it presented no challenge at all in regard to maintenance, the main issue was with poor quality parts provided when spares were required, in particular the vertical guide rollers. As regards moving the winch, we always used a low loader, it was obvious that that was the only way to do it safely, I don't recall ever getting any advice from ACCGS on this, it was a decision we took locally.

PM

PS WE992, surely not "plastic" rope? A "Dyneema" type?
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Old 4th Mar 2016, 22:24
  #1720 (permalink)  
 
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Announcement Timing

I have heard from a reliable source that we can expect a public announcement on 10th March. There is planned to be a formal written statement released by the Minister at some point on this date.
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