Air Cadets grounded?
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That system can be justified purely on the basis of their being this thing called weather that is persistent in getting in the way of glider ops and wasting everybody's time (from those driving 2 hours for GICs to those doing a scholarship and beyond) on multiple, regular occasions, even with the fleet as it was 3 years ago.
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Dave, VGS flying is very different in nature to club flying. The entire focus is on teaching bloggsy to fly a circuit. You don't usually get aircraft launching and going somewhere else for an hour or more. A hundred sorties or more per day is not uncommon if you're relying on winch launches, even using around 4-5 gliders- in effect, 200 movements a day.
You also have to factor in things like lateral spacing, runway and taxiway edges and all manner of things that can get snagged by cables (for example radars and indeed aircraft- actual events)
You also have to factor in things like lateral spacing, runway and taxiway edges and all manner of things that can get snagged by cables (for example radars and indeed aircraft- actual events)
Sorry Cat but I have to agree with Cows, and a hundred launches isn't actually that many. Its more about a mindset - if you want to make something work you can, but if you're worried that a Bad Thing might happen, then you won't.
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@Dave Unwin - sadly CATFUNT is correct.
My experience of ACO Gliding (since 1979 as Cadet and Instructor):
1. Conjoint Glider operations are not welcomed (that is Civilian and ACO) on the same field. The ACO Operates low experience student pilots training to a relatively low level of proficiency (albeit safe) and does not want the additional risk of either powered or glider operations that interfere with either the flying task or affects safety. This may not be 'written down' policy but is my experience.
2. Mixed Operations of civilian power and ACO winch launch aircraft are not welcomed either. Frankly the two are rarely compatible and create problems for each other with Power aircraft doing circuits and not confined to the standard operations and ACO winch launch aeroplanes dropping thousands of yards of cable across the airfield or launching to 1500'+ and creating a hazard for the power traffic.
3. Cable creates a FOD hazard to jet aircraft and that is why you don't get winch launch operations on fast jet airfields nowadays. This is why VGS such as Linton, Chivenor, Odiham and Lossie are motorglider operations. VGS such as Hullavington and Upavon are winch launch because there is very little/no jet operation there (inc helos)
4. Cross wind and wind strengths in general are a feature of ACO operations. When the wind goes out of limits as defined in the Flying Order Book we have to change the run we are using to reduce the risks and issues faced by the student landing in a crosswind and also to prevent cables drifting onto our 'neighbours'. Some days when the wind changes 3 or 4 times and goes out of limits we change the run 3 or 4 times a day. This is time consuming for a Winch Operation and can annoy our conjoint partners intensely.
5. Conjoint Operations often have to stop if a student is going 'first solo' to reduce the risk and issues he/she may face. This also can annoy our neighbours who often don't 'get it'.
6. Syerston operates conjoint Vigi and Viking Ops and these are largely experienced instructors but the rules and separation criteria are the same. Circuits are in opposition and reflect the differing abilities and operational profile of the two types to reduce the risk around the separate operations.
Finally,
7. COWS you clearly don't understand the rationale behind ACO gliding. There are many fields we could fit a Winch onto but that doesn't make them suited to an ACO type of operation. Assessment of sites is undertaken by the experienced staff at ACCGS and CFS - they are always keen in my experience to try and operate where possible. The agreement is also with any based units and the Defence Land Agent (DLA) - often Operation taskings mean non-availability of potentially suitable sites. In addition many operations have been tried on non-MoD sites in the past and tend to fail due to the issues highlighted above. If we were just pinging off a few winch launches with experienced pilots going cross country or local soaring then OK, but not for the ACO whose primary tasking is training and AEG.
I accept from Dave Unwin that 100+ launches a day (200 movements) does not sound a lot but there are not many civilian gliding clubs that could do that many training launches...........................
anyway back on topic lets hope this whole fiasco is sorted as soon as possible for the ACO so Cadets can get flying again.
Arc
My experience of ACO Gliding (since 1979 as Cadet and Instructor):
1. Conjoint Glider operations are not welcomed (that is Civilian and ACO) on the same field. The ACO Operates low experience student pilots training to a relatively low level of proficiency (albeit safe) and does not want the additional risk of either powered or glider operations that interfere with either the flying task or affects safety. This may not be 'written down' policy but is my experience.
2. Mixed Operations of civilian power and ACO winch launch aircraft are not welcomed either. Frankly the two are rarely compatible and create problems for each other with Power aircraft doing circuits and not confined to the standard operations and ACO winch launch aeroplanes dropping thousands of yards of cable across the airfield or launching to 1500'+ and creating a hazard for the power traffic.
3. Cable creates a FOD hazard to jet aircraft and that is why you don't get winch launch operations on fast jet airfields nowadays. This is why VGS such as Linton, Chivenor, Odiham and Lossie are motorglider operations. VGS such as Hullavington and Upavon are winch launch because there is very little/no jet operation there (inc helos)
4. Cross wind and wind strengths in general are a feature of ACO operations. When the wind goes out of limits as defined in the Flying Order Book we have to change the run we are using to reduce the risks and issues faced by the student landing in a crosswind and also to prevent cables drifting onto our 'neighbours'. Some days when the wind changes 3 or 4 times and goes out of limits we change the run 3 or 4 times a day. This is time consuming for a Winch Operation and can annoy our conjoint partners intensely.
5. Conjoint Operations often have to stop if a student is going 'first solo' to reduce the risk and issues he/she may face. This also can annoy our neighbours who often don't 'get it'.
6. Syerston operates conjoint Vigi and Viking Ops and these are largely experienced instructors but the rules and separation criteria are the same. Circuits are in opposition and reflect the differing abilities and operational profile of the two types to reduce the risk around the separate operations.
Finally,
7. COWS you clearly don't understand the rationale behind ACO gliding. There are many fields we could fit a Winch onto but that doesn't make them suited to an ACO type of operation. Assessment of sites is undertaken by the experienced staff at ACCGS and CFS - they are always keen in my experience to try and operate where possible. The agreement is also with any based units and the Defence Land Agent (DLA) - often Operation taskings mean non-availability of potentially suitable sites. In addition many operations have been tried on non-MoD sites in the past and tend to fail due to the issues highlighted above. If we were just pinging off a few winch launches with experienced pilots going cross country or local soaring then OK, but not for the ACO whose primary tasking is training and AEG.
I accept from Dave Unwin that 100+ launches a day (200 movements) does not sound a lot but there are not many civilian gliding clubs that could do that many training launches...........................
anyway back on topic lets hope this whole fiasco is sorted as soon as possible for the ACO so Cadets can get flying again.
Arc
Good points well made Arc, which I totally accept. To be honest, I was never advocating running a winch launch operation at Coningsby or Marham, but was just saying that many places do operate powered and winch launch ops side-by-side, along with motorgliders, microlights etc.
And yes, its about time the Air Cadets actuallly er got into the air!
And yes, its about time the Air Cadets actuallly er got into the air!
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Arc, I've only been gliding since 1982 so you have a couple of years on me. 
'Conjoint' can work. Booker is an example, although I accept that they do not winch launch but this is due to a relatively short field length. Furthermore, they don't sterilise everything whenever there is a first solo taking place; perhaps this is the ACO being somewhat over-zealous and agricultural in the application of Safety Management?
'Conjoint' can work. Booker is an example, although I accept that they do not winch launch but this is due to a relatively short field length. Furthermore, they don't sterilise everything whenever there is a first solo taking place; perhaps this is the ACO being somewhat over-zealous and agricultural in the application of Safety Management?
Halton operates on the basis of the VGS having priority use of the marked runways and all other traffic (powered, RAFGSA, etc) use a parallel strip with 'mirror' circuit directions, generally VGS to the north and others to the south. The RAFGSA use both winch and aerotow launching.
Last edited by chevvron; 15th Oct 2015 at 08:19.
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Hey COWS
I think it's a reflection of the experience level of the student and also the risk management aspects of the operation. By controlling the parameters, we control the risk (to a greater degree)
Thanks
Arc
@Chevvron I was aware of Halton operations and you are correct. It shows a conjoint Operation CAN work but my earlier comments are valid for my experiences :-)
I think it's a reflection of the experience level of the student and also the risk management aspects of the operation. By controlling the parameters, we control the risk (to a greater degree)
Thanks
Arc
@Chevvron I was aware of Halton operations and you are correct. It shows a conjoint Operation CAN work but my earlier comments are valid for my experiences :-)
And from memory (?) was unable to run continuous courses as Vikings and Tornados don't mix very well. Such a shame that Swanton Morley was lost to the ACO....
chevrron,
Add Cottesmore, Little Rissington, Thorney Island, Dishforth and many, many more airfields that have been squaddified - all to the detriment of the capability to maintain flying activities.
Add Cottesmore, Little Rissington, Thorney Island, Dishforth and many, many more airfields that have been squaddified - all to the detriment of the capability to maintain flying activities.
I'm amazed that anyone thought for a moment that running a winch launch operation alongside fast jets would work. The incredibly incompetent working of the collective military mind at times never fails to baffle me. Things which - to my eyes at least - seem remarkably easy, logical and straightforward often seem to be (for whatever reason) far too difficult, whereas something that is quite clearly a very silly idea they cheerfully try. Of course, in fairness I should add that I've flown and worked with some brilliant military pilots.
VGS Short finals
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Dave Unwin actually for almost 30 years at Bruggen, Gutersloh & Laarbruch winch launching took place on the same airfield that fast jets operated from without problem.
Well WE992, I never knew that and am happy to be corrected. I must admit that it certainly doesn't sound like a good idea (and I've flown gliders off the winch at a lot of different airfields, so am very familiar with winch launching) but quite clearly Bruggen, Gutersloh & Laarbruch made it work.
Any ideas why Marham couldn't? If I may make a guess - different eras?
So Enig, what's the scoop?
Any ideas why Marham couldn't? If I may make a guess - different eras?
So Enig, what's the scoop?
Dave U.
I was a member of Bruggen Gliding Club and the main reason it worked was that the club flew on weekends and the Tornados didn't! (mostly)
As has been mentioned, FOD could be an issue but the main thing to worry about in my view, was all the structures and airfield/nav. equipment on the field or near the runway. These made it imperative to land in the right place but it was a big airfield. I seem to recall that flying over the Married Quarters provided quite a reliable source of local thermals. The gliders were even kept in one of the HAS. The club seems to have been well supported by the Station and of course it helps that all users had the same boss.
Flug.
I was a member of Bruggen Gliding Club and the main reason it worked was that the club flew on weekends and the Tornados didn't! (mostly)
As has been mentioned, FOD could be an issue but the main thing to worry about in my view, was all the structures and airfield/nav. equipment on the field or near the runway. These made it imperative to land in the right place but it was a big airfield. I seem to recall that flying over the Married Quarters provided quite a reliable source of local thermals. The gliders were even kept in one of the HAS. The club seems to have been well supported by the Station and of course it helps that all users had the same boss.
Flug.