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Air Cadets grounded?

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Air Cadets grounded?

Old 8th Feb 2018, 23:08
  #4221 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
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Originally Posted by POBJOY View Post
Hi Arc As stated Kenley can be challenging for c-breaks and indeed has a peculiar shape (leg of mutton) that adds to its 'charm'. Someone has to decide if it is an airfield or not, and then start from that point. A fence adds nothing to the historical element and indeed merely destroys another part of the 'structure' that is supposed to be protected. Anyone with a grain of aviation knowledge knows that 'space' is one of the greatest benefits in an emergency and in gliding where every approach and landing has to be a 'full stop' any hazards on the operational area are UNSAFE.
It is nonsense to try to make the flying fit in with people, and especially when you are running a TRAINING ORGANISATION.
I have no confidence that 2FTS has any real handle on all this as it seems the die is cast.
If people visit a 'common' then you expect to walk on a natural surface not tarmac so why the big deal to let anyone near the peri-trac.
I know the area very well and there are plenty of options that give good access to the 'remains' of the listed blast-bays without having to use the peri-track.
Of course not having much activity for 4 years does not help the case, and therefore we are starting from a low point. However there may be a glimmer of hope if the 'fence' needs planning permission as it is not replacing an existing structure and is altering the use of the area. Trying to appease everyone usually pleases nobody so why not make a stand and get the correct solution. If it came to an enquiry the location would be classed as an airfield not a common so that would be a valuable negotiation point to get a better solution.
Good point about 'a fence' and planning permission for a 'new structure' Pobjoy

At the end of the day it's an airfield.. The land being owned by the City of London but requisitioned from them by MoD back in the early 1900s. But with IIRC? a clause built in that if MoD ever wished to return it to CofL it had to first be returned to the state it was in before MoD took it on.. which would make it horribly expensive to give it up.. Oh dear, what a shame!
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Old 9th Feb 2018, 08:53
  #4222 (permalink)  
 
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Heaven forbid that there was an accident at Kenley with a glider going through this new fence placed in the middle of the peri track, you can just imagine the questions being asked at the subsequent Court of Enquiry!
Q: Why was this fence there?
A: Oh, it was to protect the NIMBY dog walkers and runners who have been so vociferous on the RAF Kenley Facebook site!
Q: Who recommended it and who approved it?
A: Well, we did Sir!
Q: Why is it in the middle of the peri track and not on common land?
A: Oh, er, we wanted to give the public somewhere safe to walk on and for them to watch the gliding close up!
Q: Surely, they have thousands and thousands of acres of public land outside of the MOD controlled airfield?
A: Ah, but they did so want to walk on this historic airfield
Q: And does that include spending thousands of pounds building a fence in the middle of the peri track of this historically important airfield. What about flight safety?
A: Oh, the walkers and runners were so angry we thought we would appease them by giving them more of the airfield to enjoy! We will be looking at moving the fence position closer to the grass to give the general public more use of the paved surface and not to follow the yellow line. Users do not also have to stick to the paved surfaces and can walk on the grass, as the grassed area outside of the paved surface (not inside) is also still available for use. Er, flight safety, we have not had time to think of that at Kenley during the four year "pause"!
Q: Was this fence and the damage to the existing peri track ever discussed with English Heritage, who in 2000, identified Kenley as “The most complete fighter airfield associated with the Battle of Britain to have survived”. In 2006, the respective Councils of Croydon and Tandridge designated the airfield site as a Conservation Area.
A: Well, er, er!

You couldn't make it up! Oh, I just did.
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Old 9th Feb 2018, 12:57
  #4223 (permalink)  
 
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Maybe Kenley's fence needs its own thread?
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Old 9th Feb 2018, 13:21
  #4224 (permalink)  
 
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No Cambee Kenley does not need a fence on its 'historic' peri-track.
This thread is about ATC Gliding (and its future). Kenley has played a huge part in that for decades, and we wish it to continue for the future.

Unfortunately the decisions are coming from the same (pit of despair) that caused the 'pause'. Kenley is above such incompetence and deserves a far better chance to properly serve the Air Cadets for years to come.

Simple really; Kenley is either an airfield or not. If so (which it is) then the decisions should be based on preserving it as a flying field utilising the space to every advantage.
Even the historic element is not served by an out of character structure on its peri-trac (all part of its scheduled area).

Completely mad decisions made by those out of touch with both its historic element, and good practice for a flying operation.
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Old 9th Feb 2018, 13:30
  #4225 (permalink)  
 
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Pobjoy, I was merely trying to get across that this thread has gone distinctly off-topic and now seems focussed on discussing a single local matter.
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Old 9th Feb 2018, 17:58
  #4226 (permalink)  
 
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Can you imagine the questions at a Court of Enquiry if there is no fence and someone wandering onto the airfield gets killed?

BBC News | UK | Pilot unaware of rambler death
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Old 9th Feb 2018, 18:18
  #4227 (permalink)  
 
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Cats The question is the positioning of the fence. No one is saying that the public should be allowed to wander without some sort of 'reference point'.
The point in question is the fence should be away (on the non airfield side) of the peri-track giving more 'space' for operations and emergencies.
As it is intended to allow the public access at non flying times I do not see any point in reducing the flying area even more when flying is in progress, as the public can wander around the peri-track and see it in its original state.

The other important issue is the structure would alter the original character of the scheduled area that bears no relationship to its original use and purpose.

Kenley is important from both an Air Cadets and a historic point, and a structure on the peri-track in no advantage to either.

Half the problem is those involved in making the decisions do not operate from the location, and are used to large airfields without 'issues'. letter on its way to Croydon Council reminding them of the historic importance of this scheduled area and pointing out that the proposal is not beneficial to both aviation safety or a historically valuable site.

Last edited by POBJOY; 9th Feb 2018 at 19:16.
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Old 9th Feb 2018, 18:52
  #4228 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by POBJOY View Post

Half the problem is those involved in making the decisions do not operate from the location, and are used to large airfields without 'issues'. letter on its way to Croydon Council reminding them of the historic importance of this scheduled area and pointing out that the proposal it not beneficial to both aviation safety or a historically valuable site.
And the other half of the problem is they often have no conception of how VGSs work (worked?) either ..

IIRC, when the knackered old wood and canvas hangar at KY finally gave up the ghost due to an exceptionally heavy snowfall it was perfectly obvious to anyone with half a brain why it had happened.

And yet the CO still got a phone call from someone 'on high' asking why it had happened and what he had done about it on the day..

"I wasn't here Sir and only learned about the collapse after the event"

Well why weren't you there?

Because I was at work Sir..

Yes, so you were in your office at KY

No Sir, I was at work.....

Etc etc

Last edited by cargosales; 9th Feb 2018 at 18:55. Reason: gramma
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Old 9th Feb 2018, 19:50
  #4229 (permalink)  
 
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I Think JM and his ilk are actually quite jealous of the hard facts that before all of this 'over control' of everything took hold the 'Schools' were sending hundreds of Cadets solo without any real issues. The fact is the expertise was at the coal face and the results stand the test of time and scrutiny. Frelon knows Kenley as well as I do, and also knows how the spirit of the location was an important part of the experience for the Cadets, and the benefit the Air Cadet organisation has/had from its existence. With the ongoing lack of locations and knowing the system will never be as it was, it is even more important for the surviving airfields like Kenley to be 'guarded' for future generations, AND THE BEST POSSIBLE AVIATION FACILITY PROVIDED FOR SAFE OPERATIONS. Flying must come first and everything else revolve around it. There is plenty of time & room at Kenley for the public to experience this unique time warp that still provides an aviation facility. There is no point in having a scheduled historic area if you do not think carefully about how you protect it without destroying more of its original surviving infrastructure.
A fence ON a peri-track is ridiculous and achieves nothing, it needs to be on the common where it belongs,and always was.
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Old 10th Feb 2018, 08:36
  #4230 (permalink)  
 
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Sorry guys, I am bored with this thread: Are the Air cadets still grounded as of 10 Feb 2018? I was lucky enough to go solo as a 17 year old Cadet at RAF Locking in 1983, so am not trying to being rude. Just asking...
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Old 10th Feb 2018, 09:26
  #4231 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Avtur View Post
Sorry guys, I am bored with this thread: Are the Air cadets still grounded as of 10 Feb 2018? I was lucky enough to go solo as a 17 year old Cadet at RAF Locking in 1983, so am not trying to being rude. Just asking...
No........
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Old 10th Feb 2018, 09:29
  #4232 (permalink)  
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I agree. this Kenley business should have its own thread. Not a tear was shed when the historic airfield at Meir which assembled Liberators during WW2 (also the home of an ATC squadron) was taken over by developers and covered in houses. I learnt to fly there.
 
Old 10th Feb 2018, 09:46
  #4233 (permalink)  
 
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You could go one step further and merge it with, say, the Red Arrows thread. After all, same root cause and same individuals.
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Old 10th Feb 2018, 10:30
  #4234 (permalink)  
 
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The last Tweet (none since!) by JM on 11 Mar 2016 said..
Glider Recovery published 2fts priorities 1. Man manage personnel on VGSs standing down 2. Recover safe resilient cadet gliding ASAP Com2fts
So you can see how hard they have been working to get those gliders back with Air Cadets in them!

The good news is that
Initiative to increase successful PTT output this year.
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Old 10th Feb 2018, 17:47
  #4235 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cargosales View Post
And the other half of the problem is they often have no conception of how VGSs work (worked?) either ..
Similar with ATC Squadron HQs. I had a fire inspection by the RAF one day. One of their recommendations was to have illuminated 'Fire Exit' sign at each exit 'but you must make sure the mains power is not turned off as the batteries will run down.
I explained that Wing Routine Orders required mains power off when the building was unoccupied.
'How often is that?' came the question. 'Every wednesday evening until friday evening, then after friday parade it's normally off until the following wednesday'.
They had no idea we only used the building (normally) twice a week.
Never got the illuminated signs either.
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Old 12th Feb 2018, 23:43
  #4236 (permalink)  
 
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I have the sad duty of reporting the death of enigmaviation this morning. A first class friend and tireless worker for the air cadet movement. He will be missed. RIP Ian.

ACW
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Old 13th Feb 2018, 09:09
  #4237 (permalink)  
 
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So sad to hear that ACW
Condolences to Family and Friends.
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Old 13th Feb 2018, 12:26
  #4238 (permalink)  
 
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I heard this sad news this morning from the FOGIES. He gave many years to the Air Cadets. Condolences to his family and many friends.
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Old 13th Feb 2018, 13:20
  #4239 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ACW418 View Post
I have the sad duty of reporting the death of enigmaviation this morning. A first class friend and tireless worker for the air cadet movement. He will be missed. RIP Ian.

ACW
Doesn't he deserve a thread of his own?
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Old 13th Feb 2018, 16:01
  #4240 (permalink)  
 
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May I add my sincere condolences. I swapped PM's with Enigma on a number of occasions, and he was always informative, helpful and friendly. As well as highly knowledgable. He clearly loved his work with air cadets.

Sorely missed.

Engines
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