Air Cadets grounded?
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If you are worrying about broken ships you should be worrying about crashworthiness and all the glass ships knock spots of the older ones in that respect.
I can see I am wasting my time on this forum. I asked a few pertinent questions in my last input and have got no answers at all, from which I conclude you are all politicians.
Why not get real and stop whingeing after the cushy rides you got in Vikings at the taxpayers expense? I know that building new T31's is now unlikely, but unless a similar cheap aircraft can be sourced or designed, the ATC will no longer be able to do what it was best at - giving youngsters a new confidence in themselves.
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Missing skills
I think what the advocates of returning to wooden gliders are missing is there are very few people with the skill set to work with wooden structures.
Back in the days of the T21 wood structures had not long disappeared from RAF Service the DH vampire being an example the result of this was a knowlage base that could deal with the wooden gliders.
There was no of the RAF main stream operation of the glider type structures until the Grob 115 Tutor turned up ( and these are maintained under EASA145 by private contractors)
A return to wooden Aircraft would be a disaster due to the lack of understanding of the type of structures and how to repair and maintain them, is not the way forward............ I say this with some regret as my first flying training was on the Kirby cadet.
Back in the days of the T21 wood structures had not long disappeared from RAF Service the DH vampire being an example the result of this was a knowlage base that could deal with the wooden gliders.
There was no of the RAF main stream operation of the glider type structures until the Grob 115 Tutor turned up ( and these are maintained under EASA145 by private contractors)
A return to wooden Aircraft would be a disaster due to the lack of understanding of the type of structures and how to repair and maintain them, is not the way forward............ I say this with some regret as my first flying training was on the Kirby cadet.
Open cockpit gliders had 93 million miles of headroom
With apologies to the car manufacturer who originally used that advert LOL
I am certainly not advocating a return to wooden gliders but I was 6 foot and flew the T31 easily from either cockpit !
It does appear that there has been some lack of understanding on glass fibre structures!!!
T21, T31, Prefect etc. were great but, as you say - "Not the way forward". Surely in this day and age we can come up with an appropriate aircraft!!
Bill
T21, T31, Prefect etc. were great but, as you say - "Not the way forward". Surely in this day and age we can come up with an appropriate aircraft!!
Bill
Appropriate glider!
We did, but their Airships screwed it up by not looking after the contract to maintain it in an airworthy condition😱
Aluminium
All this talk of how to fix fibreglass and wood. What's wrong with aluminium? I did quite a few flights in the Blanik and it was lovely - aerobatic too. I'm no expert but there seem to have been plenty of these around for years.
repairing broken Mk3's
The MGSP knew what they were doing, but in actual fact the number of 'broken' machines in the system was very few when one considered the large number of real training flights (leading to solo) completed. The jolly old 'wheel box' area was the usual suspect and not just from a heavy arrival as the grass could conceal unhelpful objects that could cause damage. Most of these 'repairs' were done at the schools when the team in their 3 tonners visited. The aerolite was cured by simple 'bulb heaters' made out of plywood.
The MGSP guys would have easily adapted to 'glass' because they already completed scarf joins in ply and 'extending' the scarf ratio would have been an extension of their normal skills.
When I attended SM for a course there were no actual broken airframes to practice repairs on (such was the low rate of attrition) and so the guys would repair ply cabinets from the billets.
WE forget that before the schools were actually 'tasked' for AE work most ATC glider flights were dual training for the A&B, therefore it only enhances both the suitability of the equipment, standard of training, sturdiness of the fretwork fighter, and the overall fantastic volunteer organisation not hindered by crats. I am not sure when the T21 started to get its nose weight mod, however there were a few around that were original and had certain 'light pilots' limitations. Not for long at Kenley; a local mod saw a lead seat pan made and kept in the caravan ready for use.
The MGSP guys would have easily adapted to 'glass' because they already completed scarf joins in ply and 'extending' the scarf ratio would have been an extension of their normal skills.
When I attended SM for a course there were no actual broken airframes to practice repairs on (such was the low rate of attrition) and so the guys would repair ply cabinets from the billets.
WE forget that before the schools were actually 'tasked' for AE work most ATC glider flights were dual training for the A&B, therefore it only enhances both the suitability of the equipment, standard of training, sturdiness of the fretwork fighter, and the overall fantastic volunteer organisation not hindered by crats. I am not sure when the T21 started to get its nose weight mod, however there were a few around that were original and had certain 'light pilots' limitations. Not for long at Kenley; a local mod saw a lead seat pan made and kept in the caravan ready for use.
The British Blanik
Well we missed the boat on that (should have license built it) and saved 20 years of trying to modernise. In fact we could have customised it for a total winch launch operation with a simple strut mod, and enjoyed more flying when the wind got up.
POBJOY,
As a long-time backseat Blanik driver, I’m interested in your comment. What was the mod you referred to?
As a long-time backseat Blanik driver, I’m interested in your comment. What was the mod you referred to?
OK, so there is no problem fixing busted glass ships. I reserve my judgement on that point though.
Why is it necessary to have a glider costing megabucks which is required only to do circuits? Albeit 6 minute circuits, as opposed to the T31 which usually did about 4 mins. That's a lot of money for two minutes extra in the air. How do you justify that to the taxpayer? Will pupils go solo in two thirds of the time in a Viking? I doubt it.
The ATC is not a gliding club where the solo pilots expect to be taught thermal and ridge soaring and field landings so that they can go on cross countries. Once a Cadet has had his three solos that's it for 90% of them I guess. They never fly solo again. Why not just go back to the good old T31 which was cheap as chips to make and repair? We all know that the really tricky bit of flying is landing. You would agree I think that landing a K13 is a probably lot easier than a Viking, and therefore can be taught more quickly.
I maintain that the whole idea of how flying should operate in the ATC needs a root and branch review. What exactly are you trying to do?
Why is it necessary to have a glider costing megabucks which is required only to do circuits? Albeit 6 minute circuits, as opposed to the T31 which usually did about 4 mins. That's a lot of money for two minutes extra in the air. How do you justify that to the taxpayer? Will pupils go solo in two thirds of the time in a Viking? I doubt it.
The ATC is not a gliding club where the solo pilots expect to be taught thermal and ridge soaring and field landings so that they can go on cross countries. Once a Cadet has had his three solos that's it for 90% of them I guess. They never fly solo again. Why not just go back to the good old T31 which was cheap as chips to make and repair? We all know that the really tricky bit of flying is landing. You would agree I think that landing a K13 is a probably lot easier than a Viking, and therefore can be taught more quickly.
I maintain that the whole idea of how flying should operate in the ATC needs a root and branch review. What exactly are you trying to do?
(By the way, even winch launched cadets only do one solo nowadays to qualify)
When the Blanik was first suggested, it was totally ruled out because it was built in what was then an Iron Curtain country (can't have 'communist' machines in RAF markings can we) so Slingsbys came up with the UK equivalent in the T53 and we all know what a disaster that was.
I used to love the smell of dope, but would it not be possible to copy the structure of a T21 or T31 using these materials?
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When the Blanik was first suggested, it was totally ruled out because it was built in what was then an Iron Curtain country (can't have 'communist' machines in RAF markings can we) so Slingsbys came up with the UK equivalent in the T53 and we all know what a disaster that was.
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Blimey Cats - how much head room do you want in a glider ??
Open cockpit gliders had 93 million miles of headroom
With apologies to the car manufacturer who originally used that advert LOL
I am certainly not advocating a return to wooden gliders but I was 6 foot and flew the T31 easily from either cockpit !
Open cockpit gliders had 93 million miles of headroom
With apologies to the car manufacturer who originally used that advert LOL
I am certainly not advocating a return to wooden gliders but I was 6 foot and flew the T31 easily from either cockpit !
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Using the right sort of foam cushion (Confor, Dynafoam) is also very important in gliders as it reduces the risk of back injury in a heavy landing.
As with cars standards change (improve) over time. The standards now for new designs are better than they were when the Vikings were designed, and I would be astonished if they were not better than the T21/T31.
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Yet another reason to put them on the G-register rather than cut additional holes in the structure which in itself will generate a pile of paperwork.
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Don't get me wrong. Maintaining and repairing gliders on the G-reg does generate paper, but less than the MAA apparently does, and there is no requirement to cut extra holes outside any mandated by the maker for various checks, and so on. The gliders would also have a sensible life, not 2,700 launches which someone mentioned above.
However I found myself wondering this morning if the paperwork to prove how many launches / hours each glider has exists.
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Yes, it does make you wonder - with the documented admission from 2FTS that documentation (see what I did there) had been destroyed, just what details have been retained?
Could, or did, VGS CO's, especially Syerston based, ever, even out of idle curiosity, have a look at maintenance and repair records?
I can't believe that no one anywhere in the VGS network ever suspected anything, if they didn't, it perhaps highlights the naivety of blindly accepting an aircraft in to your care.
I've always taken particular interest in the maintenance and repair of anything I've flown, both the physical maintenance or repair itself and that the paperwork's in order - if you're flying it you want to make sure everything's in order as much as practicably possible.
Could, or did, VGS CO's, especially Syerston based, ever, even out of idle curiosity, have a look at maintenance and repair records?
I can't believe that no one anywhere in the VGS network ever suspected anything, if they didn't, it perhaps highlights the naivety of blindly accepting an aircraft in to your care.
I've always taken particular interest in the maintenance and repair of anything I've flown, both the physical maintenance or repair itself and that the paperwork's in order - if you're flying it you want to make sure everything's in order as much as practicably possible.