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Air Cadets grounded?

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Air Cadets grounded?

Old 30th Jun 2016, 21:44
  #2701 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 777

Thank you for coming back. I absolutely agree that not all airframe damage would have come from a reported incident. It was my bad for inferring that this would have been the case. But please allow me to outline a couple of points about how a military aircraft should have been bought and how it should have been maintained. (If you know these I apologise- I thought it might help those of a non-engineering background).

First, interchangeability. I'm not fully sighted on the details of how the Grob aircraft are built, but anyone buying a large fleet of gliders that are designed to easily come to bits on a regular basis (unlike normal military aircraft) should have made d**n sure that those bits could be swapped around, or replaced if required. In fact, I would have expected spare airframe parts to have been bought, with the requirement that these parts would have fitted any of the aircraft. Hand made or not.

Let's look at repairs, which are clearly of some interest. First, remember that we are talking military registered aircraft here. They have to comply with a series of key requirements to enter and stay in service, one of which is a comprehensive and accurate set of maintenance documents. One of those documents is the Topic 6, which is the repair manual.

A Topic 6 has to contain all the information needed to carry out repairs to the aircraft. It will contain standard approved repair schemes. (To pick up your point of a metal frame failing before the end of its life, that would normally have attracted a MF760 investigation, the end result of which could have included a new Topic 6 'standard repair scheme' to replace the frame).

It would also include a detailed map of the aircraft, telling maintainers what parts of the aircraft are 'primary', secondary', or 'tertiary' structure. These are usually colour coded. With this information, maintainers know what repairs they can apply to what areas of the aircraft. As I've previously posted, any such 'standard repair' would have normally been documented in a number of routine, well understood ways. Any external quality checks carried out by 22Gp, or the organisation that placed a support contract, would have checked routinely documentation of repairs.

if the damage found to an aircraft fell outside the information in the Topic 6, or fell into an area in which 'standard' repairs were prohibited, any Service unit would then raise a 'request categorisation' signal to the RAF's Repair and Salvage Unit (RSU). RSU would have inspected the aircraft, developed a repair (usually with DA support) and then applied the repair. RSU would have then made the relevant entries on the aircraft's documentation. There will be records of these routines.

What I'm trying (badly) to put over here is that on a Service aircraft repairs are easily and routinely managed and documented. And controlled. You simply don't go drilling holes in the structure, unless the Topic 6 says you can. You don't no 'non-standard' repairs - that's what RSU are for. The Topic 6 should also be maintained at a standard which allows maintainers to respond to emerging 'damage events'.

I said I wouldn't speculate any more, and I won't. All I will say is that not having a comprehensive and up to date Topic 6, or not funding MF760 investigations will, sooner or later, hazard the airworthiness of an aircraft fleet.

Best Regards as ever to those doing the repairs,

Engines is offline  
Old 1st Jul 2016, 05:43
  #2702 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2003
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This is where Engines and I complement each other!

I said I wouldn't speculate any more, and I won't. All I will say is that not having a comprehensive and up to date Topic 6, or not funding MF760 investigations will, sooner or later, hazard the airworthiness of an aircraft fleet.
Instructions issued in January 1993 to stop such work and for Service Engineering Authorities not to submit MF760As (Requests for Investigation). Most tried to ignore it and the compromise was save them up for 6 months and submit an Omnibus. Then you'd get the DA to do the investigation and charge it to travel and subsistence or whatever, so AMSO couldn't see money was being spent on maintaining airworthiness. Yes, I know, it made the audit trail difficult (which is what we're discussing here) but you either disobeyed an illegal order and tried to make the aircraft safe, or followed orders by committing fraud by misrepresentation. The point is, the information exists, but sometimes not always in, strictly speaking, the correct place.

Excellent summary Engines.
tucumseh is online now  
Old 1st Jul 2016, 07:39
  #2703 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: West Sussex
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but you either disobeyed an illegal order and tried to make the aircraft safe, or followed orders by committing fraud by misrepresentation.
..and thereby potentially saved lives or betrayed those who unknowingly depended on you to do your duty.

To those who did the right thing and disobeyed those illegal orders, as ex-aircrew thank you!

To those who continue to protect those who issued those illegal orders; your duty is to your Country and to your Service, not to them!
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Old 4th Jul 2016, 14:51
  #2704 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2005
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For those looking for a six-drum glider winch - one careful owner:

You are bidding on Direct from the UK Ministry Of Defence an MEL Mobile Glider Winch. This is a
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Old 4th Jul 2016, 17:42
  #2705 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2003
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Defence Select Committee - Tuesday 5 July 2016

This evidence session will now take place in: Committee Room 6, Palace of Westminster


At 11.45am

Air Vice-Marshal (retired) Paul Luker CB OBE AFC DL RAF, Chief Executive, Council of Reserve Forces’ and Cadets’ Association, and Clerk, United Kingdom Reserve Forces External Scrutiny Team

The Committee will hold its second oral evidence session for its inquiry on the outcomes of the 2015 Strategic Defence and Security Review for the Army. Areas which the Committee will seek to examine include:

Progress in the delivery of the Army 2020 programme.

Here's an idea. Get an Army officer to chat about the Army, and ask the AVM about gliders.
tucumseh is online now  
Old 5th Jul 2016, 13:36
  #2706 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2016
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He does have a link with the ACO; he's Honorary President of the Hampshire & Isle of Wight Wing.........
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Old 5th Jul 2016, 16:04
  #2707 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2003
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Thanks P107. I wrote to the committee secretary and, separately, a few members. Worth a try but...
tucumseh is online now  
Old 8th Jul 2016, 19:32
  #2708 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Oxford
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AVM Luker is the chief exec of the council of RFCAs i.e. the support organisation for reserve forces. I'd expect him to have a lot to say about Army 2020 as reserves are a rather large part of it. Cadet support is merely part of his job (in which capacity I've met him a few times). No idea if he has a view on gliding though it's certainly been discussed in meetings where he's been present...
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Old 9th Jul 2016, 16:10
  #2709 (permalink)  

Gentleman Aviator
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And of course AVM Luker was Staish at Odiham, where there was a VGS. Don't know if her flew with them, many Stn Cdrs did..........
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Old 10th Jul 2016, 12:48
  #2710 (permalink)  
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Location: Third rock from the sun.
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Good to see at least one Air Cadet glider in top condition.

Quote from 621 VGS Historic Flight. (I have no connection with them but have great admiration for the work they have done on this glider and the the other aircraft in their care).

''Ladies & gentlemen it gives me great pleasure to announce this years winner of the best civilian aircraft in show at the Royal International Air Tattoo 2016 - The Slingsby T.21B Sedburgh WB922 of the 621 VGS Historic Flight''. -

Last edited by snapper1; 14th Jul 2016 at 07:40.
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Old 10th Jul 2016, 19:29
  #2711 (permalink)  
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Nutloose said: "As to the gliding issues, as an LAE, Chief Engineer and Camo, I cannot comprehend how anyone could destroy documents pertaining to an aircraft."

From my perspective, also as an LAE, QM and CAMO since leaving the service, the RAF always disposed of maintenance paperwork that was seen as 'surplus' in that the requirements were (prior to 1999) that any maintenance records that had since been repeated could be disposed.

When the MAA was formed, this practice was still in use by most Eng Records Sections who positively and regularly shredded documents and records. Workshops/Bays were also allowed/required to dispose of records over one year old without the need for permission from anyone outside their domain. The components they referred to may still have been on shelves waiting to be installed.

When I was employed by a large contractor to assist in the implementation of MIL Part M, that company wisely opted to retain all aircraft documents for 10 years beyond the withdrawal of the FLEET. This was done to protect the company from any of the customers 'disputes'. I believe that this policy is still the case, and their records now occupy several large warehouses across the country because they didn't see the need to digitise their records.

One of my (requested) submissions to the company (and the customer) was to enable the MAA to issue ARCs (Airworthiness Review Certificates) to the fleet. the plan was to allow approx 18 months to build enough components under ARC-worthy conditions and rebuild histories on safety critical components from a known point, to recreate a parts tracking system of at least those components and install them onto post-major maintenance aircraft. At the time the LITS system was proven to be error filled and only capable of knitting the fog it generated.

Therefore creating a baseline of known history components into a 'reconditioned' aircraft with at least a best guess at its condition seemed to be a high priority.

Surprisingly (not) the plan to re-baseline the status of the fleet was not adopted.
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Old 13th Jul 2016, 11:55
  #2712 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: The sky mainly
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Wings, lack of.

I've seen quite a few photos pop up recently on my Facebook and Twitter feeds, of Air Cadet 75th anniversary parades and such like. What is noticeable in all the pictures is the lack of cadets wearing wings.

A recent group photo in Leicester showed well over 200 cadets, and only 3 high ranking staff cadets had gliding wings!
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Old 13th Jul 2016, 12:44
  #2713 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2006
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Lack of Wings - Sky Sports

Are we really surprised at the lack of Wings badges on Cadets when there has been no VGS activity for well in excess of two years, and fairly limited prospects looking ahead too with so many VGS Units disbanded ??
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Old 13th Jul 2016, 13:20
  #2714 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2009
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned the aircraft that won the best civilian aircraft award at RIAT............ The VGS Memorial Flight's Sedburgh.
I can't help thinking it was partly a sympathy vote from the judges.
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Old 13th Jul 2016, 13:54
  #2715 (permalink)  
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As an ex cadet living in the colonies for the last 65 years and owing a great life in aviation to the start I got in a little wooden glider in the UK,I wonder if the bozos responsible for this shambles have any sense of shame at what they have destroyed, or how many good kids denied going into aviation due to their total stupidity? Lets just get some fresh, qualified maintenance bods involved and get the kids back into the air for Pete's sake!
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Old 13th Jul 2016, 14:12
  #2716 (permalink)  
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They don't do shame just 'self congratulatory back slapping' and the 'blame game.................'

I bet they can't believe their luck that the EU Referendum, the CON leadership and LAB leadership fiascos have cropped up. People have many other things to think about now................. this will just quietly be swept under the carpet.

and future generations disenfranchised.

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Old 13th Jul 2016, 16:31
  #2717 (permalink)  
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VX275 - See snapper 1's post just above
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Old 13th Jul 2016, 21:33
  #2718 (permalink)  
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VX275 I take offence to your post about a judges sympathy. The aircraft has been lovingly restored to better than new by people that are interested in preserving their history.
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Old 14th Jul 2016, 09:25
  #2719 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2009
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992 you misunderstand my reference to a sympathy vote. It was not a slur on your Barge, it was intended to imply a sign of disgust by the judges at the neutering of the VGS system. Ask yourself this, would someone who calls themselves VX275 be anti Barge?
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Old 14th Jul 2016, 11:17
  #2720 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2016
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Lack of Wings

Why are people stuck on the fact that cadets only get 'gliding' wings, what about ACPS wings?!?!

There are still ACPS courses going on, in fact uptake for these courses is strong.

Its not just about gliders.........
Pegasus107 is offline  

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