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Air Cadets grounded?

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Air Cadets grounded?

Old 23rd Mar 2016, 08:54
  #2001 (permalink)  
 
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That's a shame. I would be happy to fly for an AEF. I have many thousands of hours, I fly (and have displayed) aerobatic and military types and I'm an instructor in current practice. I've never been a QSP though.
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 09:38
  #2002 (permalink)  
 
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I may be wrong but I thought that civilian instructors with no previous military experience instruct in the Grobs used for Pilot Grading, I have known two. Why should similarly qualified and experienced instructors not be allowed to fly for AEF?
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 10:40
  #2003 (permalink)  
 
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I have a full time job so would consider it on a volunteer basis. I was under the impression the flying grading was a full time position.
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 11:35
  #2004 (permalink)  
 
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Coffman

I admire your honesty and I think you've hit the nail on the head. I believe the AEFs has largely been seen as a club for ex regular QSPs. Nothing wrong with that and full respect to the chaps giving up their time to fly cadets. However, it begs the question since we now have a surplus of highly experienced VGS instructors who were qualified on a similar type then it should be straight forward to convert them.

Also, is there any reason why former CGIs and/or NCO pilots could not fly the Tutor? From a purely flying standards point of view there is no reason but they're not "chaps" are they? OC 2 FTS is well known for his dislike of civilians and presumably that extends to non commissioned riff raff.

Leaving aside the AEF issue the thing that really grates about the official announcement is the blatant spin involved. They're "putting lip stick on a pig" IMHO. The Air Cadets are having a huge reduction in flying TRAINING as opposed to air experience. To pretend otherwise is counter productive. By all means look at the glass as half full but it's still a very sad time for the ACO as a whole.

As to how this episode was handled and the way the VGS staff have been kept in the dark....don't get me started!

Mushers
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 13:53
  #2005 (permalink)  
 
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Another issue perhaps worth thinking about is the blanket ban on those over 65. Surely what matters is actual medical condition rather than biological age?

There are many who are well into their 70s and fly far more demanding aircraft than those operated by the ACO. I converted a lady of 83 on to a Tecnam a few months ago with not the slightest difficulty and one of my current students is 77 and as sharp as a tack. Our club CFI is 74, is well known in aerobatic circles and displays an Extra and a Firefly.

I don't know quite how you can be an A2* VGS exec one day and judged decrepit the next, especially if you have and can retain a Class 2 medical. The CAA seems to be considerably more enlightened in this respect than the RAF.

Last edited by ACW599; 23rd Mar 2016 at 16:23.
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 15:05
  #2006 (permalink)  
 
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Westminster Hall Debate 13 April

Upcoming Business - Commons: Westminster Hall (13 Apr 2016) https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.theyworkforyou.com_calendar_-3Fd-3D2016-2D04-2D13-23cal8892&d=AwIDAw&c=axaOw2qHyp7zEDNbTjpgYA&r=YYRyvoC1zD9GLk V3p5YPZRhvmWWc20ZYR6IuvB6a8-8&m=dZ4HOe7psZkCqzHeOgkwVrfbCi_SUapLYXuleQGToLE&s=D61Z6kGN6k YWiLzhu-kW6TRAJySO9PGcPg_xqZhu1Uc&e=
Future of gliding and the *Air Cadet* Organisation - Angela Watkinson.
*Westminster Hall debate; 11:00 am - 11:30 am*
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 15:08
  #2007 (permalink)  
 
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Future for CGIs?

Can someone confirm something for me? I am a CGI with one of the Squadrons that isn't to be disbanded, but have not recieved anything other than the Ministerial statement through our Squadron Boss. I understand that we were going to be written to individually, with options laid out; (although that may have already happened for the unfortunate Vigilant staff who are the priority).

So I have heard that the position of CGI will no longer exist, but don't know if this is true or exactly what it could mean? Does anyone know more, or if the intention is that CGIs would have to join the ATC/RAF VRT in some capacity or does it mean CGIs are now out of a job?

Any info appreciated
Flug
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 15:25
  #2008 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Flugplatz View Post
Can someone confirm something for me? I am a CGI with one of the Squadrons that isn't to be disbanded, but have not recieved anything other than the Ministerial statement through our Squadron Boss. I understand that we were going to be written to individually, with options laid out; (although that may have already happened for the unfortunate Vigilant staff who are the priority).

So I have heard that the position of CGI will no longer exist, but don't know if this is true or exactly what it could mean? Does anyone know more, or if the intention is that CGIs would have to join the ATC/RAF VRT in some capacity or does it mean CGIs are now out of a job?

Any info appreciated
Flug
You should have got the same letter from 2fts and CAC as everyone else. CGI'S will be phased out with transfer over to ATC SNCOs complete by 2020 so no massive rush. Any new starters will go direct to snco from a date (not yet promulgated) but soon.

There will be limited staff numbers related to the squadron aircraft establishment though.
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 15:26
  #2009 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks Tingger! I have been out of the country for a week so the letter may be sitting at home.

Flug
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 15:42
  #2010 (permalink)  
 
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ATFQ ...

Here is a working link showing Westminster Hall Business ... Your Post 2005 refers.

Westminster Hall Business

... Just trying to help
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 15:58
  #2011 (permalink)  
 
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Well, allow me to be the first to don my tin hat and raise the next obvious issue...

Everybody knows that a good portion of VGSs are full of experienced CGIs who would rather just leave than wear uniform. This is by no means a judgment either way on whether I believe that they should be required to, but I think it's worth saying.
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 16:13
  #2012 (permalink)  
 
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I read this thread with incredulity. Gliding and AE Flying are the hallmarks ofthe ATC, what marks it out from the other Cadet Corps. How could HQ AC allow the cessation ofgliding? There is no defence in arguing “civilianization”or whatever: contracts have to be managed actively, and if “civilianization” isthe cause of poor maintenance God help the frontline RAF!
In the present economic climate, I could understand areduction in AEF hours, but gliding, with volunteer instructors …. ….. !
As to restricting AEF flying to Service pilots, it hasprobably got something to Crown immunity. Even retired regular “full-brevet” officer AEF pilots hold commissionsin the RAFRO. As to age of retirement,as an aged PPL, I regularly fly my Air Cadet grandson, and would be happy forhim to be flown by another pilot of my age (and temperament) who holds a Class2 medical.
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 18:22
  #2013 (permalink)  
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Already lots of non RAF pilot ex civvies and ex VGS flying AEF apparently, chatted to one doing some stuff at my civvy school only last week.

Will be interesting to see how they convert these Viggie guys and girls. Those that haven't done a Ppl etc in their own time aren't anywhere near even PPL standard on light aircraft. They never done - spinning, Aeros, navigation, used nav aid kit, diversions, power approaches, used flaps LOI, busy RT, used power during stalk recoveries etc. All the ground school they've ever done was glider stuff as well so will they have to do proper light aircraft ground school and exams?

For me as a civvy to do trial lessons with Aeros I would have to be a CPL/FI with Aeros course and test done. Can't see how a Viggie guy would be same safety standard without loads of training and tests. Good luck to them though they are all great people
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 18:24
  #2014 (permalink)  
 
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Important - Debate - 13 April

It's worth making sure that your MP, if he or she has shown an interest, is made aware of the Westminster Hall debate on 13 April. It is in the detail of the order of business for the day and could easily be overlooked at a glance. I am sure that we would like any interested MPs to be able to hear from the Minister and to be able to ask him questions.
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 18:49
  #2015 (permalink)  
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Thinking about it, the NPPL legal stuff gives Viggie guys cross credits for light aircraft and they have to do about minimum 10hours, pass all PPL ground exams and pass the nav and flying skills tests, that's without Aeros and spins. So that would be a start as its already sorted out what they do as minimum for civvy flying. They looked at vig when prop dropped off the Tutor for training new pilots apparently but loads of stuff it couldn't do so they will have that study they can use to see what Viggie guys need to learn I guess.
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 19:12
  #2016 (permalink)  
 
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OK I'll bite.
Have you ever flown a Vigilant? If you had you'll notice it has a tailwheel and a three position prop, both of which require a PPL to do differences training to use. Most VGS instructors will have been transit qualified having been trained to navigate the RAF way, Dead Rekoning with chart, compass and stopwatch. Who needs nav aids?
How many PPL practice a Forced Landing every time they land? How many PPL would mess their pants if the engine stopped in flight? Vigilant instructors did it for training and for fun, especially if their passenger was a PPL or best of all a helicopter pilot.
I had 1800 hours on Air Cadet motor gliders when I went for a PPL, it was also the first time I had ever used a nosewheel undercarriage, can't see why people think they're better. As for ground school I just sat and passed the exams and then walked away blaming the Air Cadets.
Conversion from Vigilant to Tutor shouldn't be a problem, although I fear the Sliver Winged Master race will make it such.
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 19:37
  #2017 (permalink)  
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How many hours did it take to get your PPL then?
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 20:26
  #2018 (permalink)  
 
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>If you had you'll notice it has a tailwheel and a three position prop, both of which require a PPL to do differences training to use<

Just for the record, the Vigilant does not have a true VP propeller; it has a three-position fixed-pitch prop, of which one position is feathered. Differences training is certainly required for someone from a Vigilant background converting on to an SEP aircraft with a VP propeller.

I also wouldn't sign anyone off for tailwheel differences training on the basis of having flown a Vigilant since the takeoff technique is not representative of a true taildragger.
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 21:39
  #2019 (permalink)  
 
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Notwithstanding all the other issues that those far more expert than me have commented on, I think the move to a uniformed cadre may prove a challenge. I believe there are issues with recruiting sufficient uniformed staff generally within the ACO, let alone into a specialism such as aircrew...
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 22:56
  #2020 (permalink)  
 
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unbelievable

I've followed this thread for some time and reading all the posts these decisions make me quite angry in the fact that the restructure will take even more flying away from young Air Cadets that are interested in flying and Gliding.

I have served my local VGS for over 15 years as a civillian and it's been brilliant and enjoyed teaching young buzzing Air Cadets.

Quite frankly many of us guys are not impressed by the no thanks for the service we have received and to be blunt senior 2 FTS 'chaps' can shove it, I'll take my skills elsewhere thank you.
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