Global Aviation Magazine : 60 Years of the Hercules
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Welcome WIDN62 
Great shout ... Let's add that to RAF Alberts CV
If everyone is happy ... I'll gladly volunteer to keep tabs on the stats and summarise IDC
How about - who has dropped on the highest DZ?
If everyone is happy ... I'll gladly volunteer to keep tabs on the stats and summarise IDC
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Gondu (possibly Gondo) Meskel DZ in Ethiopia pans out at 8,179 feet and we were doing 4 x 1 tonnes of grain from about 10 feet.
We had the ITN camera team with us as it was the last Ethiopian air drop by the RAF. Due to the altitude, the TAS was quite high.
Skipper was Bob Rowley (RIP) and a good time was had by all.
We had the ITN camera team with us as it was the last Ethiopian air drop by the RAF. Due to the altitude, the TAS was quite high.
Skipper was Bob Rowley (RIP) and a good time was had by all.
cold and a bit the worse for wear
It was actually on the return from Kiev on a Jacig suffering from a nasty dose of Ukrainian vodka after an evening of return toasts with our Ukranian hosts. I was visited by a Ukranian doctor who was dressed like the doctors in many spoof films, russian fur hat, white coat and knee boots and yes she was female and quite good looking! A trip to remember!
Gopher01,
Thanks for the confirmation young fella, although the photo was mine it was a certain Tucker T that outed you (He's too shy to post on PPRUNE). I well remember that trip. I threw in Hungary in the hope you might correct me. Some great pictures you're posting mate, and I can't believe Eddie Botham was ever an SAC leckie. I will await your story. To the rest of the lads, sorry for doing a bit of GE jacking, just found an old friend. Good old PPRUNE, good old Albert I suppose.
Back to business. I see stories of RAF Alberts High, Low , North, South, East and West, of course we've yet to relate those long, long trips down South in the 80s. Having done a few tanker rotations, and standard (if you could call them that) trips to MPA, I was surprised to hear that our endurance record (Terry Locke ?) has now been beaten by a USAF MC130 two ship from USA to Korea. 36 hours non stop, supported by KC135s. Anyone have memories of those long trips from ASI southbound? I'm sure some of you operators had more of an insight than I did as self loading freight.
Smudge
Thanks for the confirmation young fella, although the photo was mine it was a certain Tucker T that outed you (He's too shy to post on PPRUNE). I well remember that trip. I threw in Hungary in the hope you might correct me. Some great pictures you're posting mate, and I can't believe Eddie Botham was ever an SAC leckie. I will await your story. To the rest of the lads, sorry for doing a bit of GE jacking, just found an old friend. Good old PPRUNE, good old Albert I suppose.
Back to business. I see stories of RAF Alberts High, Low , North, South, East and West, of course we've yet to relate those long, long trips down South in the 80s. Having done a few tanker rotations, and standard (if you could call them that) trips to MPA, I was surprised to hear that our endurance record (Terry Locke ?) has now been beaten by a USAF MC130 two ship from USA to Korea. 36 hours non stop, supported by KC135s. Anyone have memories of those long trips from ASI southbound? I'm sure some of you operators had more of an insight than I did as self loading freight.
Smudge
Last edited by smujsmith; 25th Jun 2014 at 22:40.
Coff,
we will have to wait for upgently as that particular airfield Nepal airfield is not in my log book. Some are but stupidly they are only marked as 'strips' ! Have been to most of the places mentioned by ExAscoteer. During the build up to GW1 we were scheduled out of King Khaled at midday ! The tower gave the OAT as +45 but out on the pan the a/c and we knew it was well over that. Took a very long time (smudge will understand !) for the No 3 to condescend to wind up and come on speed.
Pic is of the Himalayas on 'Scenic Departure One' from Kathmandu. We had a regular schedule there from Changi to take amongst other things the Gurkha pensions paymaster. He would go round the various villages paying the ex army chaps their pensions in cash.
we will have to wait for upgently as that particular airfield Nepal airfield is not in my log book. Some are but stupidly they are only marked as 'strips' ! Have been to most of the places mentioned by ExAscoteer. During the build up to GW1 we were scheduled out of King Khaled at midday ! The tower gave the OAT as +45 but out on the pan the a/c and we knew it was well over that. Took a very long time (smudge will understand !) for the No 3 to condescend to wind up and come on speed.
Pic is of the Himalayas on 'Scenic Departure One' from Kathmandu. We had a regular schedule there from Changi to take amongst other things the Gurkha pensions paymaster. He would go round the various villages paying the ex army chaps their pensions in cash.
Continuation of the airdrop pics. This is my view of the DZ as we did a 'dummy run' prior to returning for the real thing. The 'A' DZ marker stands out quite well which was not always the case especially at night. Brian and others will have seen this view many times a split second before me.
smudge,
Gan was very near level with the sea. Must search for a pic. All those South Pacific Islands in earlier posts were not very much above the sea as you can tell from the pics. When the B747 came in service it could have problems 'hot and high'. With the original P and W engines it could struggle. So for example if the early morning take off was delayed to say lunch time then they would have to offload pax. The same could apply to the 'K' but we had a cunning plan. It was min fuel to get us to Mombasa (sea level) then fill up as required for the destination.
Gan was very near level with the sea. Must search for a pic. All those South Pacific Islands in earlier posts were not very much above the sea as you can tell from the pics. When the B747 came in service it could have problems 'hot and high'. With the original P and W engines it could struggle. So for example if the early morning take off was delayed to say lunch time then they would have to offload pax. The same could apply to the 'K' but we had a cunning plan. It was min fuel to get us to Mombasa (sea level) then fill up as required for the destination.
Coff,
the Herk, like most of Lockheeds transports could be very cold at altitude.
I will leave smudge and others far more qualified to explain the 'workings' of the not very well designed heating system. This situation was exacerbated when they stretched 30 of the a/c by 15 feet. After many complaints they ran a trial with thermometers positioned around the cargo compartment. The problem was they were all fitted above head height and as anyone will tell you the first thing to freeze was your feet. So the whole thing was a farce. Lip service as usual.
the Herk, like most of Lockheeds transports could be very cold at altitude.
I will leave smudge and others far more qualified to explain the 'workings' of the not very well designed heating system. This situation was exacerbated when they stretched 30 of the a/c by 15 feet. After many complaints they ran a trial with thermometers positioned around the cargo compartment. The problem was they were all fitted above head height and as anyone will tell you the first thing to freeze was your feet. So the whole thing was a farce. Lip service as usual.
AA62,
Understood on the pacific island altitudes. I went to Diego Garcia once, and I see its runway altitude is logged as 9 feet, that would probably be my low record. Nice one on the Nairobi, Mombassa trick. I certainly did that a few times as a GE. The other "trick" for high temperature operating conditions that I recall was the "bleeds off" take off. A few minutes of sweating ensured the full output of the engines were available.
Alberts heating system was always going to struggle with the sheer volume of the cargo bay, and although it did have an underfloor heating system, most of the conditioned air was distributed through ducting in the roof. Because hot air tends to rise, an attempt was made to move it round with a recirculation fan, never particularly effective. I also suspect that despite the thin layer of insulation, on which you could often see frost at altitude, that huge internal volume was surrounded by a pretty efficient heat exchanger. As a "frequent flyer" in the cargo bay, I do know that a high volume load in the back seemed to help both the pressurisation and heating systems, obviously reducing the internal air mass requiring conditioning.
Perhaps someone like Kilwhang might help on this, but a fellow ex GE and myself were musing the other day as to why they put the Outflow valve on the flight deck, and the safety vale in the cargo bay. Once pressurised the safety valve remains closed, unless max diff is exceeded (not an easy feat), the outflow valve however continuously allows a flow of air to pass out and maintain the selected differential. This means that there is a "designed in" flow of quite cool air from the cargo bay to the flight deck. That may well have been a root cause of many complaints from the "front end" about inefficiency of the flight deck pack. I wonder though if Navigators in particular would notice any particularly cool flow of air, they were, after all, in direct line. Had the outflow valve/safety valve arrangement been reversed the natural flow would have been towards the rear of the aircraft, possibly making use of any flight deck pack output. Not having worked on any other transport aircraft I would be guessing though that most suffered problems with heating due to the sheer volume of air needing conditioning. Blimey, don't I ramble on.
Smudge
Understood on the pacific island altitudes. I went to Diego Garcia once, and I see its runway altitude is logged as 9 feet, that would probably be my low record. Nice one on the Nairobi, Mombassa trick. I certainly did that a few times as a GE. The other "trick" for high temperature operating conditions that I recall was the "bleeds off" take off. A few minutes of sweating ensured the full output of the engines were available.
Alberts heating system was always going to struggle with the sheer volume of the cargo bay, and although it did have an underfloor heating system, most of the conditioned air was distributed through ducting in the roof. Because hot air tends to rise, an attempt was made to move it round with a recirculation fan, never particularly effective. I also suspect that despite the thin layer of insulation, on which you could often see frost at altitude, that huge internal volume was surrounded by a pretty efficient heat exchanger. As a "frequent flyer" in the cargo bay, I do know that a high volume load in the back seemed to help both the pressurisation and heating systems, obviously reducing the internal air mass requiring conditioning.
Perhaps someone like Kilwhang might help on this, but a fellow ex GE and myself were musing the other day as to why they put the Outflow valve on the flight deck, and the safety vale in the cargo bay. Once pressurised the safety valve remains closed, unless max diff is exceeded (not an easy feat), the outflow valve however continuously allows a flow of air to pass out and maintain the selected differential. This means that there is a "designed in" flow of quite cool air from the cargo bay to the flight deck. That may well have been a root cause of many complaints from the "front end" about inefficiency of the flight deck pack. I wonder though if Navigators in particular would notice any particularly cool flow of air, they were, after all, in direct line. Had the outflow valve/safety valve arrangement been reversed the natural flow would have been towards the rear of the aircraft, possibly making use of any flight deck pack output. Not having worked on any other transport aircraft I would be guessing though that most suffered problems with heating due to the sheer volume of air needing conditioning. Blimey, don't I ramble on.
Smudge
Complete reverse job
I had completely the opposite problem with 20 Army pax we picked up in Eastleigh. There were at least 2 half colonels, 2 majors and suncry others who had been at the Kenya training area and so in civvies (always worn off base there and as they travelled, for security reasons).
The saga started when the refuelling trolley broke down and could not be persuaded back into action. We then had to take everybody over to Embakasi to get enough fuel for Seeb. Because of that delay we finally arrived late into the Seeb evening when SOAF were all already tucked into bed. We, the crew and all in "uniform" were allowed into the country by a back gate. The pax, still in civvies, were taken to the civil terminal but had no visas. They were only eventually released after about 2 hrs and protracted efforts from me and the Loadie.
Next morning all seemed to go well and we departed on time. About half way up the climb the Loadie asked for more coolth down the back. After several more requests the Eng said that was it - fully cold. By now all the pax were stripped off to their shreddies with sweat pouring off them. All the aircon seemed to be doing what it should but the freight bay was still hot and getting hotter. Part of the load was a 1945 field gun which the Omani Artillery was sending to Larkhill as a thank you for training. It turned out it had been sitting at the airport for sometime and was now a 5 ton storage heater pre-heated to about 45 degrees C and now doing what storage heaters are meant to do.
It was only just before we landed in Athens, about 8 1/2 later that the pax needed any more clothes. At Athens the saga continued. The handling agent put the pax in what must have been a typical holiday brochure "artist's impression" hotel right on the threshold of the runway - they could taste the jet fuel in their G&Ts on the balcony as the jets only just cleared the hotel, rooms were incomplete with bare wires and light fittings hanging from the ceiling etc etc.
To cap it all breakfast was a paltry affair with rancid butter. We bought them a second real breakfast at the airport but I learnt a lot about handling passengers from that saga - basically, if you talk to them, which we perforce did a lot over the 3 days, you can do almost what you like go them. When we finally made Lyneham every one of them came up to thank me and joke about the privations of the journey.
The saga started when the refuelling trolley broke down and could not be persuaded back into action. We then had to take everybody over to Embakasi to get enough fuel for Seeb. Because of that delay we finally arrived late into the Seeb evening when SOAF were all already tucked into bed. We, the crew and all in "uniform" were allowed into the country by a back gate. The pax, still in civvies, were taken to the civil terminal but had no visas. They were only eventually released after about 2 hrs and protracted efforts from me and the Loadie.
Next morning all seemed to go well and we departed on time. About half way up the climb the Loadie asked for more coolth down the back. After several more requests the Eng said that was it - fully cold. By now all the pax were stripped off to their shreddies with sweat pouring off them. All the aircon seemed to be doing what it should but the freight bay was still hot and getting hotter. Part of the load was a 1945 field gun which the Omani Artillery was sending to Larkhill as a thank you for training. It turned out it had been sitting at the airport for sometime and was now a 5 ton storage heater pre-heated to about 45 degrees C and now doing what storage heaters are meant to do.
It was only just before we landed in Athens, about 8 1/2 later that the pax needed any more clothes. At Athens the saga continued. The handling agent put the pax in what must have been a typical holiday brochure "artist's impression" hotel right on the threshold of the runway - they could taste the jet fuel in their G&Ts on the balcony as the jets only just cleared the hotel, rooms were incomplete with bare wires and light fittings hanging from the ceiling etc etc.
To cap it all breakfast was a paltry affair with rancid butter. We bought them a second real breakfast at the airport but I learnt a lot about handling passengers from that saga - basically, if you talk to them, which we perforce did a lot over the 3 days, you can do almost what you like go them. When we finally made Lyneham every one of them came up to thank me and joke about the privations of the journey.
Hot and High Take off
Many reading this thread may well remember the Flying Order to take 15,000 lbs off all WAT limits as calculated from the ODM.
It was, fortunately, Embakasi this time and our T/O weight was 155,000 lbs (max normal AUW for the non-operators). All the calculations were good and we did not need all of the long (11,000 ft ?) runway. However, in view of the temperature, we decided a standing start, rather than rolling, would be appropriate (this was also in the days when rolling T/Os were frowned upon). Power on all looked good, released the brakes and, apparently, nothing happened. After what seemed an appreciable delay Albert shook himself and very, very slowly started to roll. The climb, as well, did not seem too impressive but we made it.
When we got back to Lyneham, there was the new FO. Further measurements had shown the WAT limits to be wildly optimistic - they had never previously been measured on the -15 but extrapolated from the original Lockheed flight trials (withe the A models) - and the 15,000 lb decrease was the result.
It was, fortunately, Embakasi this time and our T/O weight was 155,000 lbs (max normal AUW for the non-operators). All the calculations were good and we did not need all of the long (11,000 ft ?) runway. However, in view of the temperature, we decided a standing start, rather than rolling, would be appropriate (this was also in the days when rolling T/Os were frowned upon). Power on all looked good, released the brakes and, apparently, nothing happened. After what seemed an appreciable delay Albert shook himself and very, very slowly started to roll. The climb, as well, did not seem too impressive but we made it.
When we got back to Lyneham, there was the new FO. Further measurements had shown the WAT limits to be wildly optimistic - they had never previously been measured on the -15 but extrapolated from the original Lockheed flight trials (withe the A models) - and the 15,000 lb decrease was the result.
Xercules,
very interesting tales which many of us here can relate to. As for 'talking' to the pax I used to pester the Navs for a map with the route marked on. I would put it up in the cargo compartment and let the pax see where we were going. This went down especially well in the build up to GW1 as very few had a clue as to where they were headed.
very interesting tales which many of us here can relate to. As for 'talking' to the pax I used to pester the Navs for a map with the route marked on. I would put it up in the cargo compartment and let the pax see where we were going. This went down especially well in the build up to GW1 as very few had a clue as to where they were headed.
Smudge,
went to Diego Garcia twice. Once before it was 'remodelled' and we were in the wooden shacks. The next time after its 'make over' we were in air conditioned single rooms. Tale about that and pics in due course.
went to Diego Garcia twice. Once before it was 'remodelled' and we were in the wooden shacks. The next time after its 'make over' we were in air conditioned single rooms. Tale about that and pics in due course.
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Ah yes, Diego Garcia.
Having operated across the Far East, India, Nepal, and India (again) it fell to Diego Garcia to be the only place where I ever got food poisoning 'Down Route'.
Bloody Yankee pizza (the pizza place was the only 'eatery' open by the time we landed.
Having operated across the Far East, India, Nepal, and India (again) it fell to Diego Garcia to be the only place where I ever got food poisoning 'Down Route'.
Bloody Yankee pizza (the pizza place was the only 'eatery' open by the time we landed.
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Outflow Valve
Thanks for the compliment Smuj, but I'm afraid I don't know why the Outflow Valve was positioned so far forward.
Far more worrying was the revelation by Dengue Dude that he flew down the Grand Canyon with an STS crew in 1980. I was the Air Eng Instructor on STS at the time......why wasn't it me? Maybe I was sitting on a hillside in Scotland, waiting for the Scottac crew to drop me a 'butty box'.
Actually, with only one Air Eng on STS, it was quite common to give trips away and we tried to give the Sim guys a few days away.
I'm really enjoying this thread but, due to a 'marital disruption' in the 1990s nearly all of my pics are elsewhere so I'm, mainly, a lurker.
As for high altitude DZs - didn't 70 Sqn do relief work in Nepal around 1970? Surely there must have been some very high DZs then.
And how far north: wasn't there a 'Nav's playtime' trip that used to go Lyn - Goose - Thule - Keflavik - Lyn. Lots of fun for the Navs but pure agGRIVATION for the rest of us
Far more worrying was the revelation by Dengue Dude that he flew down the Grand Canyon with an STS crew in 1980. I was the Air Eng Instructor on STS at the time......why wasn't it me? Maybe I was sitting on a hillside in Scotland, waiting for the Scottac crew to drop me a 'butty box'.
Actually, with only one Air Eng on STS, it was quite common to give trips away and we tried to give the Sim guys a few days away.
I'm really enjoying this thread but, due to a 'marital disruption' in the 1990s nearly all of my pics are elsewhere so I'm, mainly, a lurker.
As for high altitude DZs - didn't 70 Sqn do relief work in Nepal around 1970? Surely there must have been some very high DZs then.
And how far north: wasn't there a 'Nav's playtime' trip that used to go Lyn - Goose - Thule - Keflavik - Lyn. Lots of fun for the Navs but pure agGRIVATION for the rest of us
Sorry for the intrusion gents, as my only connection to the Hercules is the odd ferry as a passenger like the one from Turkey to UK via Cyprus (on one of the legs there was an attractive female GE who appeared to have a well tailored flying suit) and one jolly as an apprentice, but while I was watching the video from the other thread about the Harrier landing on the carrier without its nose leg I saw this and thought it might be of interest:
Air Conditioning etc
Kilwhang #536,
Thanks for that last. I suspect the position of the outflow valve must remain a mystery, for now! As for my theory about the temperature control, it was based on a trip I did, that was quite a hard work but opened my eyes to how decreasing the volume of the cargo bay makes it more efficient.
I was the SVC to an AGE allocated to a trip to Maputo in Mozambique, in the days when they had a "very" Soviet sympathising government. It was a Mk3 aircraft and the purpose of the trip was to deliver a very large tubular metal water tank, (it looked like a tank off a fuel tanger only bigger) as a gift from our government to a village in Mozambique, who had requested a large water holder. The tank, when loaded, stretched from FS245 and overhung the ramp. It's girth left around a foot of clearance on the MLG walls. It had a two way pressure relief valve on it, so offered no threat with respect to pressurisation, and was so large that we could just get some para seats down, but had to either lie along them or sit with our knees around our ears. Also coming along to unload this tank was a team of UKMAMS blokes. Now, these were the days that Akronelli would not open on a Sunday for transiting aircraft, and as it was a Sunday we flew to Cairo for our first night stop, and my first "son et lumiere". From take off at Lyneham, all the way to Cairo the Cargo bay was extremely hot. The Air Eng had full cold selected and it was doing nothing, so we stewed, even the flight deck was very warm. A long flight that needed a few beers to aid our recovery after landing.
The next day our leg to Maputo gave the same result, very hot, and uncomfortable. As Xercules explained, it was a matter of stripping to a barely decent state. We arrived at Maputu on schedule, and on shutdown were immediately surrounded by a ring of armed guards, all pointing their AKs inwards. There were no customs etc, we were to unload and get out of dodge, as if they had never allowed us in. Thankfully, our "muppet" team had helped on load the tank, so managed to get it off, without damaging Albert in the process, in about three hours. I don't think the Captain was too pleased when the people who had turned up to receive the tank remarked that they had asked for a large collapsible rubber tank, not this monstrosity. Anyway, they accepted it, and off we went, a night stop Mauritius, then Akronelli and back home. You've guessed it, we bloody froze down the back all the way home, no amount of hot selection would warm that Albert up, so we cursed it until we got back to Lyneham. There was of course nothing wrong with the aircraft, but I think this shows how high volume loads can effect temperature control. I know that from choice, I preferred a route carrying a decent "sized" load as opposed to say lots of people, or an empty aircraft. Come to think about it, were the tankers a bit warmer ?
Exrigger,
Nice movie, and I'm sure if we ever had a carrier the size of Wales our lads would have been happy to have a go.
I think there was a female AGE, but after my time I'm afraid.
Smudge
Thanks for that last. I suspect the position of the outflow valve must remain a mystery, for now! As for my theory about the temperature control, it was based on a trip I did, that was quite a hard work but opened my eyes to how decreasing the volume of the cargo bay makes it more efficient.
I was the SVC to an AGE allocated to a trip to Maputo in Mozambique, in the days when they had a "very" Soviet sympathising government. It was a Mk3 aircraft and the purpose of the trip was to deliver a very large tubular metal water tank, (it looked like a tank off a fuel tanger only bigger) as a gift from our government to a village in Mozambique, who had requested a large water holder. The tank, when loaded, stretched from FS245 and overhung the ramp. It's girth left around a foot of clearance on the MLG walls. It had a two way pressure relief valve on it, so offered no threat with respect to pressurisation, and was so large that we could just get some para seats down, but had to either lie along them or sit with our knees around our ears. Also coming along to unload this tank was a team of UKMAMS blokes. Now, these were the days that Akronelli would not open on a Sunday for transiting aircraft, and as it was a Sunday we flew to Cairo for our first night stop, and my first "son et lumiere". From take off at Lyneham, all the way to Cairo the Cargo bay was extremely hot. The Air Eng had full cold selected and it was doing nothing, so we stewed, even the flight deck was very warm. A long flight that needed a few beers to aid our recovery after landing.
The next day our leg to Maputo gave the same result, very hot, and uncomfortable. As Xercules explained, it was a matter of stripping to a barely decent state. We arrived at Maputu on schedule, and on shutdown were immediately surrounded by a ring of armed guards, all pointing their AKs inwards. There were no customs etc, we were to unload and get out of dodge, as if they had never allowed us in. Thankfully, our "muppet" team had helped on load the tank, so managed to get it off, without damaging Albert in the process, in about three hours. I don't think the Captain was too pleased when the people who had turned up to receive the tank remarked that they had asked for a large collapsible rubber tank, not this monstrosity. Anyway, they accepted it, and off we went, a night stop Mauritius, then Akronelli and back home. You've guessed it, we bloody froze down the back all the way home, no amount of hot selection would warm that Albert up, so we cursed it until we got back to Lyneham. There was of course nothing wrong with the aircraft, but I think this shows how high volume loads can effect temperature control. I know that from choice, I preferred a route carrying a decent "sized" load as opposed to say lots of people, or an empty aircraft. Come to think about it, were the tankers a bit warmer ?
Exrigger,
Nice movie, and I'm sure if we ever had a carrier the size of Wales our lads would have been happy to have a go.
I think there was a female AGE, but after my time I'm afraid.Smudge