PAS, AFPS75, PVR and 5 years
Thread Starter
PAS, AFPS75, PVR and 5 years
Anyone PAS got actual experience of leaving on PVR before their 5 year point on AFPS75?
I've just run the figures on the pension calculator for leaving at the 3 year point on PAS after 20 years and I get a £2,300 bigger pension than a Level 9 Flt Lt. It would seem to pro rata the difference between a Level 9 Flt Lt and the full PAS Flt Lt pension. Is this right?
iRaven
I've just run the figures on the pension calculator for leaving at the 3 year point on PAS after 20 years and I get a £2,300 bigger pension than a Level 9 Flt Lt. It would seem to pro rata the difference between a Level 9 Flt Lt and the full PAS Flt Lt pension. Is this right?
iRaven
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Not sure the pension calculator is intelligent enough to give you the correct answer in the circumstances that you describe. If you read the AP (haven't got the reference handy, sorry) it clearly states that PA pension credits only kick in if you complete the complete the 5 yr RoS associated with PA.
It is my understanding that if you PVR and leave before the RoS is fulfilled your pension will be (slightly?) worse than if you had left at your 38/16 point.
If you want my advice based on my experience, don't even bother asking PSF. Read the books yourself, and join the FPS so you can dip into their expertise.
It is my understanding that if you PVR and leave before the RoS is fulfilled your pension will be (slightly?) worse than if you had left at your 38/16 point.
If you want my advice based on my experience, don't even bother asking PSF. Read the books yourself, and join the FPS so you can dip into their expertise.
I don't think you will worse off than if you had left at 16/38. Your pension will have increased at the standard AFPS 75 rate per year but you will not be eligible for the PAS 'pension supplement'. It is mentioned in the help section at the end of the calculation - in the sidebar on the right hand side.
You would probably be closer to reality by telling the calculator that you are not on the PA spine. Note that your pension will be reduced by leaving on PVR - you can see that difference by checking or unchecking the PVR button.
The PVR bit is from this booklet: https://www.gov.uk/government/upload..._explained.pdf
The PVR on PAS after less than 5 years bit is in paras 05.0623 and 05.0624 in JSP 754 available from your friendly Dii terminal. If I've got it right, this link should download the JSP: JSP 754
It is worth getting forecast, which now has to be done using the appropriate form here (they will not respond to a letter anymore): http://www.veterans-uk.info/pensions...trequests.html
I also recommend joining the Forces Pension Society.
You would probably be closer to reality by telling the calculator that you are not on the PA spine. Note that your pension will be reduced by leaving on PVR - you can see that difference by checking or unchecking the PVR button.
The PVR bit is from this booklet: https://www.gov.uk/government/upload..._explained.pdf
NOTE: Officers who are permitted to leave the Armed Forces at their own request, after reaching the IP Point but before completing their commission or before age 50 are paid Premature Voluntary Retirement (PVR) rates of pension, which are lower than the IP rates.
It is worth getting forecast, which now has to be done using the appropriate form here (they will not respond to a letter anymore): http://www.veterans-uk.info/pensions...trequests.html
I also recommend joining the Forces Pension Society.
Last edited by Background Noise; 4th Apr 2014 at 08:37. Reason: I found the PAS details
Are you sure that you can PVR before the 5 year point? Acceptance of a PAS offer now removes any PVR option until the 5 years has passed. Sure, you may be able to persuade Manning and there may be legal loopholes but I wouldn't assume that it will be easy.
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I'd think that they'd be in a sticky (legal) situation refusing to let folk PVR given that they seemed happy to make people within their 5 yr PAS 'contract' redundant...
2 separate issues unfortunately (and maybe unfairly).
The waiving of the right to PVR for 5 years is in the T&Cs of the acceptance paperwork.
Edit: Having checked the paperwork, my wording isn't exactly correct. You don't 'waive your PVR right' but there is a 5 year RoS so, presumably, PVRing is about as easy as if you'd just completed an OCU.
The waiving of the right to PVR for 5 years is in the T&Cs of the acceptance paperwork.
Edit: Having checked the paperwork, my wording isn't exactly correct. You don't 'waive your PVR right' but there is a 5 year RoS so, presumably, PVRing is about as easy as if you'd just completed an OCU.
Last edited by SAR Bloke; 4th Apr 2014 at 13:09. Reason: Accuracy
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I know of someone a while back who PVR'd within the 5 year qualifying period. MoD accidentally paid him at the PAS rate and then tried to take the difference back from him. He challenged them, legally, on the basis that if you've done 2 years in a substantive rank you get that pension.... he won. He is the reason the 5 year RoS came in, to prevent people from doing just 2 years.
With the new 2015 pension changes being forced on us I wonder if a PVR on the basis of your T&Cs being forcibly changed on you could be denied legally. I would think any good employment lawyer would have a field day with that.
With the new 2015 pension changes being forced on us I wonder if a PVR on the basis of your T&Cs being forcibly changed on you could be denied legally. I would think any good employment lawyer would have a field day with that.
Last edited by CAC Runaway; 4th Apr 2014 at 14:49.
I also know that the 2 years in substantive and 3 years in acting is a myth. If you do 1 out of 2 years substantive you get 1/2 the new rate between your old/new rank, and if you do 1 out of 3 or 2 out of 3 you get 1/3 and 2/3 respectively. I did 18 months acting and 14 months substantive in my new rank and got 1/3 plus 1/2 - ie. 0.83 of my new pension on PVR 
It wasn't worth doing the extra 10 months as they were going to abte me for my planned FTRS contract anyway!
LJ
PS. I'm pretty sure that QRs can only hold you in for 18 months on PVR anyway.
It wasn't worth doing the extra 10 months as they were going to abte me for my planned FTRS contract anyway!
LJ
PS. I'm pretty sure that QRs can only hold you in for 18 months on PVR anyway.
He is the reason the 5 year RoS came in, to prevent people from doing just 2 years.
You can leave before the 5 year RoS point but you get no pension supplement - for those who haven't bothered to read the links above, this is from the JSP:
PAS/PES(A) OF3s who exit the Service prior to giving the requisite
5 years of Service on the PAS/PES(A) will receive the standard CS
representative rank based pension.
5 years of Service on the PAS/PES(A) will receive the standard CS
representative rank based pension.
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I left nov 2012 after 3 yrs on PAS. The pension I received was exactly the same as the calculator. The forecast I requested was about £1500 less than the calculator. And ultimately £1500 pa less than what I actually received.
I guess the current calc may be different to what I used so may be different.
I guess the current calc may be different to what I used so may be different.
BN
It seems that we are about the same age and obviously got our offer of PA at the same time. My recollection is slightly different, yes one needed 5 years of service to be allowed to transfer to the scheme and that was , I believe, due to the 5 years being a minimum time to achieve an enhanced pension (ie PAS) under the 75 scheme. I don't remember a ban on PVR within that timescale. If one did PVR with less than 5 years PA then one simply got a SA pension. Of course nowadays those assimilated who do leave before 5 years PA have no SATOS to fall back on.
For those PA on 05 scheme I would have thought that the EDP was based on the final salary(best 365 days in the last 3 years) like everyone else on that scheme.
It seems that we are about the same age and obviously got our offer of PA at the same time. My recollection is slightly different, yes one needed 5 years of service to be allowed to transfer to the scheme and that was , I believe, due to the 5 years being a minimum time to achieve an enhanced pension (ie PAS) under the 75 scheme. I don't remember a ban on PVR within that timescale. If one did PVR with less than 5 years PA then one simply got a SA pension. Of course nowadays those assimilated who do leave before 5 years PA have no SATOS to fall back on.
For those PA on 05 scheme I would have thought that the EDP was based on the final salary(best 365 days in the last 3 years) like everyone else on that scheme.
Thread Starter
Thanks for the replies people. The most interesting is JliderPilot's - were you on AFPS75? If so, how I read it is that you actually PVR'd with only 3 out of the so-called "mandaory" 5 years and got a 'half-way' pension between PAS and the normal Regular's pension? Am I right?
iRaven
iRaven
Not the case - the 5 years RoS was in from the start of PAS when it was introduced in 2003 to those of us who were already Spec Aircrew - in fact those that did not have 5 years left till their 55 point were not allowed to go across to PAS.
You can leave before the 5 year RoS point but you get no pension supplement - for those who haven't bothered to read the links above, this is from the JSP:
You can leave before the 5 year RoS point but you get no pension supplement - for those who haven't bothered to read the links above, this is from the JSP:
As a result, they introduced the new vindictive RoS that removed all ability to leave via PVR in the 5 year qualifying period. The JSP may give the terms as to what happens should you leave in this period (eg via compulsory redundancy) but it is the RoS that stops people from leaving via PVR.
Simple answer - I do not know. The tri-service regulations that detail when and where an RoS can be implemented do not cover these situations. Manning issued their own instructions that state that ACOS Manning can introduce an RoS for anything he likes. Since you PVR'd and ran to hear your own bell they have introduced a promotion RoS that you have to sign to receive your promotion. This stops people from doing as you did. They also introduced a post-command RoS to stop people bailing out once they finish an OF4 command tour.
As ever, the more they tighten their grip the more personnel slip through their fingers.
Command RoS from AP 3393:
PVR RoS:
The only exception to the above I know about is the age 50 / 30 year rule.
RETURN OF SERVICE
Introduction
6301. The RAF Manning organisation has the authority to apply a Return of Service (RoS) to any assignment if it is considered to be in the interests of the Service. Personnel must be notified of any RoS attached to a future assignment and given the opportunity to reject the assignment offer. The period of the RoS will commence from the date of completion of, or earlier re-assignment from, the assignment to which it is attached; however, the RoS requirement is incurred from the start date of the assignment.
Amortisation of Command Appointments
6302. Command is a privilege and the essence of service in the RAF; it is an opportunity given only to the very best of our officer corps. With it come responsibilities. These are most evident whilst in appointment, but the experience gained in command is unique and it is in the best interests of the Service that it should seek a return on its investment in appointing individuals to command. Command appointments are, therefore, reserved for those officers who are prepared to show exceptional commitment to the RAF by providing an assurance of continued service which will allow them and the Service to capitalise on their command experience to the overall benefit of Defence. An officer who is not prepared to accept command under these terms will not have their appointment confirmed and will be removed from any future command competitions.
6303. A gp capt or wg cdr who takes up a command appointment is required to provide 24 months RoS following completion of their command tour. The RoS will be incurred from the date on which command is assumed and will normally be calculated from the date that command is relinquished.
Introduction
6301. The RAF Manning organisation has the authority to apply a Return of Service (RoS) to any assignment if it is considered to be in the interests of the Service. Personnel must be notified of any RoS attached to a future assignment and given the opportunity to reject the assignment offer. The period of the RoS will commence from the date of completion of, or earlier re-assignment from, the assignment to which it is attached; however, the RoS requirement is incurred from the start date of the assignment.
Amortisation of Command Appointments
6302. Command is a privilege and the essence of service in the RAF; it is an opportunity given only to the very best of our officer corps. With it come responsibilities. These are most evident whilst in appointment, but the experience gained in command is unique and it is in the best interests of the Service that it should seek a return on its investment in appointing individuals to command. Command appointments are, therefore, reserved for those officers who are prepared to show exceptional commitment to the RAF by providing an assurance of continued service which will allow them and the Service to capitalise on their command experience to the overall benefit of Defence. An officer who is not prepared to accept command under these terms will not have their appointment confirmed and will be removed from any future command competitions.
6303. A gp capt or wg cdr who takes up a command appointment is required to provide 24 months RoS following completion of their command tour. The RoS will be incurred from the date on which command is assumed and will normally be calculated from the date that command is relinquished.
Impact on Applications for Early Termination (PVR)
6305. The provisions of Chapter 7, Section 6, will apply. Exceptionally, when it is in the interests of the Service (or in other circumstances, such as compassionate grounds) the requirement to complete a RoS may be waived by the Manning organisation.
6305. The provisions of Chapter 7, Section 6, will apply. Exceptionally, when it is in the interests of the Service (or in other circumstances, such as compassionate grounds) the requirement to complete a RoS may be waived by the Manning organisation.
Early Termination (PVR) Waiting Periods
7607. Every application will be considered by the RAF Manning Organisation on its individual merits. Applications will be considered in the light of Service requirements and manning levels within the applicants’ particular rank, branch and, where appropriate, specialization. Providing the RoS requirements set out in Chapter 4 Section 4 and Chapter 6 Section 3 are satisfied, the maximum waiting time from the date of the application will normally be no longer than 12 months. However the Service reserves the right to retain officers for more than 12 months in exceptional circumstances.
7607. Every application will be considered by the RAF Manning Organisation on its individual merits. Applications will be considered in the light of Service requirements and manning levels within the applicants’ particular rank, branch and, where appropriate, specialization. Providing the RoS requirements set out in Chapter 4 Section 4 and Chapter 6 Section 3 are satisfied, the maximum waiting time from the date of the application will normally be no longer than 12 months. However the Service reserves the right to retain officers for more than 12 months in exceptional circumstances.
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The new Pension Calculator is now online. Some cosmetic changes and slightly enhanced summary, but most important, the 2014 pay rise figures are included. New today I believe.
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Easy...
...just fail your fitness test/eye test/hearing test/BP test etc etc. They'll kick you out faster than you can say whoah boy and you may even get a medical pension to boot if it can be attributed to military working conditions (hearing etc seeing as there are plenty of letters out there with regard to aircraft operating way above the legal decibel threshold - FACT!)
Can't touch your pension rights then as they terminate. Obviously this is not something I would consider as I want to return the loyalty and integrity shown to me!
Can't touch your pension rights then as they terminate. Obviously this is not something I would consider as I want to return the loyalty and integrity shown to me!