LONG RANGE SAR
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Jayland,
Over the years there have been a number of complex SAR missions. Not all are headline grabbers, mainly because the outcomes were good.
I am glad the E3 is doing such a great job.
Over the years there have been a number of complex SAR missions. Not all are headline grabbers, mainly because the outcomes were good.
I am glad the E3 is doing such a great job.
Last edited by Phoney Tony; 14th Mar 2014 at 23:06.
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Quote:
Two RAAF AP-3C's heading right now to the Malaysian B777 crash area for SAR ops
RNZAF P3 not far behind .....
Indian AF C-130J and Indian Navy P-8I plus some Dornier 228 Indian Coast Guard machines have joined the search for the B777 as well....
Long range SAR is a good thing. The AO is not always predictable..
Two RAAF AP-3C's heading right now to the Malaysian B777 crash area for SAR ops
RNZAF P3 not far behind .....
Indian AF C-130J and Indian Navy P-8I plus some Dornier 228 Indian Coast Guard machines have joined the search for the B777 as well....
Long range SAR is a good thing. The AO is not always predictable..
Hold on, don't we give the Indians financial aid? Perhaps we could borrow some P8Is
I believe the thought is that the E3 would co ordinate a big SAR operation. How often they actual rehearse this complex task and understand the maritime environment and SAR/ Coastguard organisation is debatable.
Oh my God, with a couple of helos and a few boats (on primary RADAR and AIS) how would the mission crews cope with vectoring them to the target area? Especially with its various radios, datalinks and satcom?
Sarcasm off...
The E-3 has proven that it can vector Coastguard cutters and helicopters to intercept small boats carrying stuff that isn't good for your health in the past - I'm sure they'd cope!
LJ
Now I see they claim this 777 climbed to FL450...after descending to FL230!!!!
They theory that they're parked on some dusty airfield doesn't seem good to me in that mobile phones and cameras seem to be everywhere . Not to mention the penetration of someone's airspace without being noticed .
(AEO = Airborne Eating Officer)
They theory that they're parked on some dusty airfield doesn't seem good to me in that mobile phones and cameras seem to be everywhere . Not to mention the penetration of someone's airspace without being noticed .
(AEO = Airborne Eating Officer)
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LJ,
The ability to vector a few contacts falls far short of the requirement.
Also AIS is not fitted to ac or fitted to vessels under 300T. There are also other things which do not have AIS which are floating around the seas and oceans.
The capabilities you quote are true to a degree but you ignore the the short falls.
The ability to vector a few contacts falls far short of the requirement.
Also AIS is not fitted to ac or fitted to vessels under 300T. There are also other things which do not have AIS which are floating around the seas and oceans.
The capabilities you quote are true to a degree but you ignore the the short falls.
Phoney
Sorry mate, utter rot. The E-3 is perfectly capable in a 'high boy' role in a maritime scenario. However, I would agree that it is pants in a 'low boy' role unlike MPAs.
Of course AIS isn't fitted to aircraft, but Mode S is for the aircraft likely to be at and around 30W (which is what we are talking about). Also, there aren't that many small craft out there either, so most of the surface ships around 30W will be AIS capable. Anyway, the E-3's primary 'ping-pong divide by 2' RADAR is more than capable of seeing the type of ships/boats you get out at 30W and the likely sea-state.
So the E-3 is almost perfect for controlling a significant SAR op in the mid Atlantic. In that it can fly up to 11hrs+ unrefuelled, it can see everything it needs to see within a ~200nm radius, it has plenty of means of communicating to everyone it needs to and also has the benefit of having at least 2-3 ex-Nimrod mates on board to tap into their expertise if they need a SME.
Oh, and I say this from someone who spent a few years on the E-3. So in summary, the E-3 is no good at low level search and can"t drop ASRA but is excellent at controlling a maritime SAR op (the clue is in the name AWACS
). However, it is perfect for directing one of the standby J models with an ASRA kit to the scene of the ditching.
LJ
Sorry mate, utter rot. The E-3 is perfectly capable in a 'high boy' role in a maritime scenario. However, I would agree that it is pants in a 'low boy' role unlike MPAs.
Of course AIS isn't fitted to aircraft, but Mode S is for the aircraft likely to be at and around 30W (which is what we are talking about). Also, there aren't that many small craft out there either, so most of the surface ships around 30W will be AIS capable. Anyway, the E-3's primary 'ping-pong divide by 2' RADAR is more than capable of seeing the type of ships/boats you get out at 30W and the likely sea-state.
So the E-3 is almost perfect for controlling a significant SAR op in the mid Atlantic. In that it can fly up to 11hrs+ unrefuelled, it can see everything it needs to see within a ~200nm radius, it has plenty of means of communicating to everyone it needs to and also has the benefit of having at least 2-3 ex-Nimrod mates on board to tap into their expertise if they need a SME.
Oh, and I say this from someone who spent a few years on the E-3. So in summary, the E-3 is no good at low level search and can"t drop ASRA but is excellent at controlling a maritime SAR op (the clue is in the name AWACS
). However, it is perfect for directing one of the standby J models with an ASRA kit to the scene of the ditching.LJ
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It couldn't see any of the helos flying in Bosnia either, from what I recall, which was about the only thing of interest flying there...
Using it as a stop-gap-find-a-job high level asset is fine but until the waves of Russian bombers come over the horizon again, it's a bit of a lost soul...
An MPA could do everything over the ocean that was required, except lift someone out of the water - that was the point.
Using it as a stop-gap-find-a-job high level asset is fine but until the waves of Russian bombers come over the horizon again, it's a bit of a lost soul...
An MPA could do everything over the ocean that was required, except lift someone out of the water - that was the point.
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LJ,
You pick your scenarios to fit the limited capability of the E3 in this role.
I can think of a whole range of scenarios which it can not do but this is not the place to expose them.
To control SAR you need a level of SA/ SU which you do not have. That's why you need a low boy. How far out is that support, at addition cost, available?
You can not rely on AIS, IFF, beacons and other systems from survivors or those that add to operational picture during a SAR mission. They assist but do not provide the full picture.
There are small aircraft and vessels at 30 W.
You pick your scenarios to fit the limited capability of the E3 in this role.
I can think of a whole range of scenarios which it can not do but this is not the place to expose them.
To control SAR you need a level of SA/ SU which you do not have. That's why you need a low boy. How far out is that support, at addition cost, available?
You can not rely on AIS, IFF, beacons and other systems from survivors or those that add to operational picture during a SAR mission. They assist but do not provide the full picture.
There are small aircraft and vessels at 30 W.
TB7
What rot. The only thing they couldn't see well was around Udbina due to the steep valleys and their direction. It was nothing to do with the E-3's RADAR performance against helicopters and more to do with the fact that electro-magnetic waves can't travel through rocks. Therefore, the Air Commander asked for a bespoke CAP in the area with fighters to look down this valley - ironically this was the CAP that Scott O'Grady was shot down on and the F3s had been covering for the previous 5 days...
Phoney
Fair enough mate. If there are survivors in the water and no sea vessels/helicopters to pick them up out at 30W then they're pretty well scr3w3d anyway.
LJ
It couldn't see any of the helos flying in Bosnia either, from what I recall, which was about the only thing of interest flying there...
Phoney
Fair enough mate. If there are survivors in the water and no sea vessels/helicopters to pick them up out at 30W then they're pretty well scr3w3d anyway.
LJ
Thinking about it more. If there was an airliner down at 30W in Oceanic Airspace then this would be a truly international effort. The UK could do the following:
1. Send Tansor and probably Southern QRA to go and start looking.
2. Send the national standby C130J with an ASRA. Generate further C130 and C17 supportin longer term by cancelling other AT taskings.
3. Send a UK E-3 as top cover and control (as part of the NATO AEW Force they could also request a GK or FR E-3).
4. Send FFs and DDs with helos to area.
5. Longer term embark helos on OCEAN or LUSTY and send them. Both SH and SAR helos could be embarked.
6. Call the Irish Air Corps for CN235 MPA support.
That is before we even ask our cousins in Canada and USA for assistance with P3, P8 and AAR capable helos.
So do we need a new LR SAR asset? I would say 'no' because we have a lot of options and a dedicated LR SAR assetis guilding the lilly.
However, do we need an MPA to look after the UK nuclear detterent. I would say 'yes' because although DDs and FFs with pinging helos are OK, the extra utility of an MPA is sorely missed.
LJ
1. Send Tansor and probably Southern QRA to go and start looking.
2. Send the national standby C130J with an ASRA. Generate further C130 and C17 supportin longer term by cancelling other AT taskings.
3. Send a UK E-3 as top cover and control (as part of the NATO AEW Force they could also request a GK or FR E-3).
4. Send FFs and DDs with helos to area.
5. Longer term embark helos on OCEAN or LUSTY and send them. Both SH and SAR helos could be embarked.
6. Call the Irish Air Corps for CN235 MPA support.
That is before we even ask our cousins in Canada and USA for assistance with P3, P8 and AAR capable helos.
So do we need a new LR SAR asset? I would say 'no' because we have a lot of options and a dedicated LR SAR assetis guilding the lilly.
However, do we need an MPA to look after the UK nuclear detterent. I would say 'yes' because although DDs and FFs with pinging helos are OK, the extra utility of an MPA is sorely missed.
LJ
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LJ,
How quickly could we muster all these assets especially the surface units?
I think you would be surprised how few, in sea worthy condition, are available at any one time?
How long will it take to get to the area of interest?
FJ searching at 30W? How much AAR effort to get there? I suggest they would be of little use once on station. Limited radar search capability (no AIS etc) and difficult to conduct a secure visual search - I doubt if a single seat pilot could do both. How long can they remain on station? Indeed how far from land are they allowed to go? A transit home from 30W on one engine would be interesting and a risk the grown ups would probably not be willing to take.
The assets you list have very limited ability to search large areas particularly in bad weather - high sea states and the Helos have trouble getting back on board. Low cloud base, 8/8 cover in old money, requires low level visual identification of small contacts and training.
We can call on our friends but the UK has a responsibility which we, as a rich country, should honour properly.
Good to see you are trying LJ but still no banana!
How quickly could we muster all these assets especially the surface units?
I think you would be surprised how few, in sea worthy condition, are available at any one time?
How long will it take to get to the area of interest?
FJ searching at 30W? How much AAR effort to get there? I suggest they would be of little use once on station. Limited radar search capability (no AIS etc) and difficult to conduct a secure visual search - I doubt if a single seat pilot could do both. How long can they remain on station? Indeed how far from land are they allowed to go? A transit home from 30W on one engine would be interesting and a risk the grown ups would probably not be willing to take.
The assets you list have very limited ability to search large areas particularly in bad weather - high sea states and the Helos have trouble getting back on board. Low cloud base, 8/8 cover in old money, requires low level visual identification of small contacts and training.
We can call on our friends but the UK has a responsibility which we, as a rich country, should honour properly.
Good to see you are trying LJ but still no banana!
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What rot. The only thing they couldn't see well was around Udbina due to the steep valleys and their direction. It was nothing to do with the E-3's RADAR performance against helicopters and more to do with the fact that electro-magnetic waves can't travel through rocks.
By all means use the E3 as we still have several lying around - just don't preach it as the panacea...
TB7/PT
Given the alert states of some of these aircraft memtioned then you could have Typhoons to 30W within I estimate 2-3 hours with supporting AAR. That's not after a 2hr period of notice like the old kipper fleet - the little jets would be airborne within minutes few. During my days on FJ QRA operating many miles North of the UK is not a problem and using KEF as a div would be the way ahead. Typhoons sip gas at 40kft+ and so could be on scene waiting for AAR if the crash was closer than 30W (which is the worst case). If it's a nice day then they will probably see the devastation, debris and fuel slick. If it's a crap day then a descent to low level for a look-see is not exactly taxing - no need for pie-eaters in the left/right windows as you can see all around! As for flying down at low level, throw in the height hold and look out the window!!! In reality, they are probably not going to an airliner crash but helping find a boat/ship in immediate distress (which is not what we're discussing here).
As we've seen so sadly recently, time is of the essence to find wreckage/survivors of an airline crash. Therefore, waiting for Grimrod to load it's pies and sponge cakes and getting airborne after 2 hours plus the 3 hour transit to 30W would probably be a wasted journey for a downed passenger jet (which is what this thread was all about - remember?). The C130 or Irish CN235 would also probably be too late as most airlines rely on the slides on the aircraft for passenger survival - after 5-6 hours of floating exposed on a slide, in comfy clothes, probably injured due to the crap seat belts and being squeezed into the airliner like sardines whilst landing on mountainous swells found in the North Atlantic. I doubt there would be that many left (if at all). So in harsh reality - why would you bother? The passengers in an airliner are probably already dead before the dear old Grimrod has got the second pie in the galley.
So there you have it. I suspect we are already covering our responsibility as a 'rich nation' with plenty of assets that may be used in assistance. Trying to resurrect Grimrod Mk5 off the back of LR SAR is plain du,b and we would be far better off extoling the virtues of a MPA for it's real core tasks - protecting the deterent, protecting the (as yet undelivered) carriers, providing Maritime surface picture over the horizon, maritime air-surface attack and finally Maritime ISTAR. Those are the core roles of an MPA and not pretending to be a multi-engined version of Baywatch (Speedos not inlcuded!).
LJ
Given the alert states of some of these aircraft memtioned then you could have Typhoons to 30W within I estimate 2-3 hours with supporting AAR. That's not after a 2hr period of notice like the old kipper fleet - the little jets would be airborne within minutes few. During my days on FJ QRA operating many miles North of the UK is not a problem and using KEF as a div would be the way ahead. Typhoons sip gas at 40kft+ and so could be on scene waiting for AAR if the crash was closer than 30W (which is the worst case). If it's a nice day then they will probably see the devastation, debris and fuel slick. If it's a crap day then a descent to low level for a look-see is not exactly taxing - no need for pie-eaters in the left/right windows as you can see all around! As for flying down at low level, throw in the height hold and look out the window!!! In reality, they are probably not going to an airliner crash but helping find a boat/ship in immediate distress (which is not what we're discussing here).
As we've seen so sadly recently, time is of the essence to find wreckage/survivors of an airline crash. Therefore, waiting for Grimrod to load it's pies and sponge cakes and getting airborne after 2 hours plus the 3 hour transit to 30W would probably be a wasted journey for a downed passenger jet (which is what this thread was all about - remember?). The C130 or Irish CN235 would also probably be too late as most airlines rely on the slides on the aircraft for passenger survival - after 5-6 hours of floating exposed on a slide, in comfy clothes, probably injured due to the crap seat belts and being squeezed into the airliner like sardines whilst landing on mountainous swells found in the North Atlantic. I doubt there would be that many left (if at all). So in harsh reality - why would you bother? The passengers in an airliner are probably already dead before the dear old Grimrod has got the second pie in the galley.
So there you have it. I suspect we are already covering our responsibility as a 'rich nation' with plenty of assets that may be used in assistance. Trying to resurrect Grimrod Mk5 off the back of LR SAR is plain du,b and we would be far better off extoling the virtues of a MPA for it's real core tasks - protecting the deterent, protecting the (as yet undelivered) carriers, providing Maritime surface picture over the horizon, maritime air-surface attack and finally Maritime ISTAR. Those are the core roles of an MPA and not pretending to be a multi-engined version of Baywatch (Speedos not inlcuded!).
LJ
Sorry about the size, but look at this Boeing 747 emergency card and look at the bottom and you will see what I mean about emergency slides! Not an MS10 or MS24 in sight!
By the way, I'm not singling out Lufthansa here - all the airlines do this on their big jets!
LJ
By the way, I'm not singling out Lufthansa here - all the airlines do this on their big jets!
LJ
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LJ
You have spent too long around FCs or ABMs (or have they changed the name to Death Star Operatives yet to keep it punchy).
E3s can see all they need to see, fast jets at 30W looking for the bits. I think you have been to some of the recent AMI group-thinks, only you thought it was all true!
You have spent too long around FCs or ABMs (or have they changed the name to Death Star Operatives yet to keep it punchy).
E3s can see all they need to see, fast jets at 30W looking for the bits. I think you have been to some of the recent AMI group-thinks, only you thought it was all true!
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I fear that LJ is right when he says that an LRMP aicraft of the Nimrod's capabilities cannot be justified solely for ASR duties alone but I cannot allow his sarcastic “Therefore, waiting for Grimrod to load it's pies and sponge cakes and getting airborne after 2 hours plus the 3 hour transit to 30W would probably be a wasted journey for a downed passenger jet (which is what this thread was all about – remember?)” go unchallenged.
Does he really think that the aircraft was only pre-flight readied when a distress call came in? It would have been inspected and set up by the duty crew when they took over the SAR responsibility, and 20 minutes from fast asleep in your bunk at 2 in the morning to airborne and on your way was normal. Quicker in daylight.
And a visual search includes the area directly below the aircraft and for a short distance out a-beam, where only the beam look-outs in their bubble windows can monitor for long, long stretches of time.
Does he really think that the aircraft was only pre-flight readied when a distress call came in? It would have been inspected and set up by the duty crew when they took over the SAR responsibility, and 20 minutes from fast asleep in your bunk at 2 in the morning to airborne and on your way was normal. Quicker in daylight.
And a visual search includes the area directly below the aircraft and for a short distance out a-beam, where only the beam look-outs in their bubble windows can monitor for long, long stretches of time.
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LJ,
Buy back of the MPA is not based on its SAR role. SAR is a role an MPA can do along with many other capabilities, some of which have been recognised as being gaps which need to be filled.
Your scenario is again one which fits your assumed capability and lack of awareness.
Add a bit of reality. Is your FJ mate on Q authorised for this mission?
This implies some form of qualification and currency?
Let's add some realistic environmental conditions for 30W at northern latitudes in winter.
Night, sea state above 5+, 30Kts + on the surface. Cloud base 300ft solid up to 20'000ft.
Finding the wreckage of a downed airliner will be a challenge in this environment.
In the real world we also need to provide SAR for things as small as a man over board to a fixed oil rig and everything in between.
Each scenario has its own challenges which I could expand upon.
Also in addition whilst there may not be survivors from a big airline crash there is a requirement to conduct a board of inquiry so a datum for searches for the black boxes need to be established.
You have spent too much time in the company of ABM who really should stay in bunkers!
Buy back of the MPA is not based on its SAR role. SAR is a role an MPA can do along with many other capabilities, some of which have been recognised as being gaps which need to be filled.
Your scenario is again one which fits your assumed capability and lack of awareness.
Add a bit of reality. Is your FJ mate on Q authorised for this mission?
This implies some form of qualification and currency?
Let's add some realistic environmental conditions for 30W at northern latitudes in winter.
Night, sea state above 5+, 30Kts + on the surface. Cloud base 300ft solid up to 20'000ft.
Finding the wreckage of a downed airliner will be a challenge in this environment.
In the real world we also need to provide SAR for things as small as a man over board to a fixed oil rig and everything in between.
Each scenario has its own challenges which I could expand upon.
Also in addition whilst there may not be survivors from a big airline crash there is a requirement to conduct a board of inquiry so a datum for searches for the black boxes need to be established.
You have spent too much time in the company of ABM who really should stay in bunkers!
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In order to add a little credibility to the AIS statement from Phoney Tony.
AIS is not mandatory for vessels of less than 300 tonnes but is often fitted. At between £500 - £1000 for a set its a cheap way of not getting run down by a cargo ship whilst dicking around in your yacht or fishing vessel. At that price it's also cheaper than a surface search radar and easier to use too.
AIS is not mandatory for vessels of less than 300 tonnes but is often fitted. At between £500 - £1000 for a set its a cheap way of not getting run down by a cargo ship whilst dicking around in your yacht or fishing vessel. At that price it's also cheaper than a surface search radar and easier to use too.
Typhoons doing SAR? Absolutely f'ing hilarious 
Just what would be the point? Only someone who has never done SAR could possibly conceive that this would be viable!!
Still I suppose it's slightly more viable than drones doing SAR which will probably be the latest Air Force (LJ) fantasy.
And as for this:
. Well strangely enough, the 50-odd aircraft and 50-odd ships currently searching for a 777 would suggest that you would bother. Only right now the UK wouldn't bother as we don't have a capability to do so. I think LJ must have been on something stronger than ale whilst watching the 6N
Just what would be the point? Only someone who has never done SAR could possibly conceive that this would be viable!!Still I suppose it's slightly more viable than drones doing SAR which will probably be the latest Air Force (LJ) fantasy.
And as for this:
So in harsh reality - why would you bother?