5 Sqn Sentinal mapping floods
This is just a guess, but d'you know what, Al? I suspect that someone involved in dealing with the floods at a fairly senior level, on receipt of the offer of recce assets, consulted with his/her experts as to whether they might be useful, was told 'yes' and then replied 'That'd be great, thank you, when can we start?'
I somehow doubt that CAS, or AOC 2Grp has been generating these sorties simply because they'll play well in the press while those dealing with the flooding pause momentarily to ask 'WTF is that all about, then?' as they see the imagery.
I somehow doubt that CAS, or AOC 2Grp has been generating these sorties simply because they'll play well in the press while those dealing with the flooding pause momentarily to ask 'WTF is that all about, then?' as they see the imagery.
The requirement for airborne int was raised by CIVPOL earler this week, nothing to do with the RAF toting their capabilities. Good on those who are supporting, perhaps the keyboard warriors may reflect on what they are doing........
I somehow doubt that CAS, or AOC 2Grp has been generating these sorties simply because they'll play well in the press while those dealing with the flooding pause momentarily to ask 'WTF is that all about, then?' as they see the imagery.
I'd be happy to be proven wrong - but I suspect this is more PR and politics than a genuinely useful response to the problem. But if the Sentinel does have the capability to produce topographical data sufficiently accurate for civil engineering purposes from a high-altitude high-speed SAR platform then there is some serious money to be made...
Last edited by Trim Stab; 14th Feb 2014 at 17:43.
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This is just a guess, but d'you know what, Al? I suspect that someone involved in dealing with the floods at a fairly senior level, on receipt of the offer of recce assets, consulted with his/her experts as to whether they might be useful, was told 'yes' and then replied 'That'd be great, thank you, when can we start?'
One thinks the US would have a say in the matter, so no ability to sell anything. As for the fidelity, well modern radar exploitation methods are rather special. The ability to identify incredibly small changes is stunning.
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exercise will be very useful
This data gathering exercise will be very useful to calibrate existing flood models developed by UK agencies (CEH - hydrology, Wallingford) over the last decade or so.
Now the boffins will know where the water flows - the RAF is supplying the images. Match the RAF images to LIDAR etc. models and you have water depth, extent etc. Overfly for a couple of days and you have temporal information (flood advance, rate of, and then ebb).
All that 'real-world' information can be plugged into the existing models to greatly improve them. Could save £s and lives.
It isn't a PR exercise! It has great potential. Someone is thinking clearly in this emergency - good for them.
Regards, Tanimbar
Now the boffins will know where the water flows - the RAF is supplying the images. Match the RAF images to LIDAR etc. models and you have water depth, extent etc. Overfly for a couple of days and you have temporal information (flood advance, rate of, and then ebb).
All that 'real-world' information can be plugged into the existing models to greatly improve them. Could save £s and lives.
It isn't a PR exercise! It has great potential. Someone is thinking clearly in this emergency - good for them.
Regards, Tanimbar
One thinks the US would have a say in the matter, so no ability to sell anything. As for the fidelity, well modern radar exploitation methods are rather special. The ability to identify incredibly small changes is stunning.
The data gathering technique may well have application for civil engineering, but the data processing methodology is not the same.
Tanimbar - yes I agree with that - as a means of calibrating the accuracy of previously calculated modelling, the images could be useful - as long as there is a means to process the imagery to a common datum. Mind you, commercial satellite photographs are also good enough to use as calibration data.
It rather depends whether Sentinel can provide calibration imagery at times when satellites cannot do so.
It rather depends whether Sentinel can provide calibration imagery at times when satellites cannot do so.
I'm sorry,
All of this can be done easily and cheaply using CSI ( Commercial Satellite Imagery) and a couple of Post-Grad Remote Sensing Students.
Call me old fashioned , BUT:
This is not the sort of tasking that traditionally trained militarily imagery interpreters should be productively employed on in place of their primary duties.
Although they can of course do it.
Haraka out.
All of this can be done easily and cheaply using CSI ( Commercial Satellite Imagery) and a couple of Post-Grad Remote Sensing Students.
Call me old fashioned , BUT:
This is not the sort of tasking that traditionally trained militarily imagery interpreters should be productively employed on in place of their primary duties.
Although they can of course do it.
Haraka out.
Last edited by Haraka; 14th Feb 2014 at 18:22.
Sentinel crews get called upon to do this kind of thing in the operational environment.
They also do training in the UK.
They do more than a satellite can do.
Then the EA asked them to focus their training in a certain area.
What is there to criticise?
It really is no effort for the platform or the crews but it is a very big deal for the EA to get access to classified technology on demand.
Meanwhile we have people on the ground working very very hard - these are the people that should have our admiration.
They also do training in the UK.
They do more than a satellite can do.
Then the EA asked them to focus their training in a certain area.
What is there to criticise?
It really is no effort for the platform or the crews but it is a very big deal for the EA to get access to classified technology on demand.
Meanwhile we have people on the ground working very very hard - these are the people that should have our admiration.
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Well said....
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Are there many of them sitting around ready to spring into action then Haraka?
If so perhaps you could pass on your observations to the Env Agency and the Government. I'm sure they hadn't considered any of that BEFORE asking for help and advice from the MOD.
Is it the bad weather that is making everyone so frigging cynical and pessimistic or is it just Britain today in general?
Well done to ALL of the boys and girls, whatever flavour and whatever support they are giving.
I would love to know if all of those posting their pearls of wisdom have done anything to go and help out with the flood situation? There is plenty that can be done from filling sandbags to doing shopping for those that are stranded or homeless. I can even point you in the right direction if you like.
(there are plenty that have pitched in so this is not aimed at you obviously)
If so perhaps you could pass on your observations to the Env Agency and the Government. I'm sure they hadn't considered any of that BEFORE asking for help and advice from the MOD.
Is it the bad weather that is making everyone so frigging cynical and pessimistic or is it just Britain today in general?
Well done to ALL of the boys and girls, whatever flavour and whatever support they are giving.
I would love to know if all of those posting their pearls of wisdom have done anything to go and help out with the flood situation? There is plenty that can be done from filling sandbags to doing shopping for those that are stranded or homeless. I can even point you in the right direction if you like.
(there are plenty that have pitched in so this is not aimed at you obviously)
Are there many of them sitting around ready to spring into action then Haraka?
If so perhaps you could pass on your observations to the Env Agency and the Government. I'm sure they hadn't considered any of that BEFORE asking for help and advice from the MOD.
If so perhaps you could pass on your observations to the Env Agency and the Government. I'm sure they hadn't considered any of that BEFORE asking for help and advice from the MOD.
It really is no effort for the platform or the crews but it is a very big deal for the EA to get access to classified technology on demand.
Meanwhile we have people on the ground working very very hard - these are the people that should have our admiration.
Meanwhile we have people on the ground working very very hard - these are the people that should have our admiration.
As Jayminand argued, I agree completely that an accurate measure of the extent of flooding is primordial in calibrating models that have been previously developed using LIDAR and other geometric survey data. If Sentinel can outperform satellite imagery by flying "on-demand" and when atmospheric conditions are not conducive to satellite imagery, then all the better. But what really interests me is whether it can produce data accurate enough to challenge LIDAR or other conventional cloud-point imaging processes.
Oh please,
Spare me this classified technology horse whistle.
Basically ,you use digital terrain mapping (DTM) modelling to get the shape of the land (LIDAR if if you want to be very clever and support your local LIDAR capability or company).RADAR, ground truthing or traditional imagery stereo comparison if not.
Then you use local historical rainfall data records to obtain ( at no effort to yourself) derived likely 10,20, 50, 100yr and RMF ( Recurrent Massive Flood ) contour flood levels. These levels you will then have as overlays on local DTM contour data.
Then you overlay the current commercial satellite imagery layer ,showing urbanisation, over your contour data and you can see the threat areas.
The , when it happens , it is a simple change detection exercise to lay the actual imagery over the historical model and read off the changes.
And , yes, I have done it for real , also using radar when cloud obscured the AOI.
Spare me this classified technology horse whistle.
Basically ,you use digital terrain mapping (DTM) modelling to get the shape of the land (LIDAR if if you want to be very clever and support your local LIDAR capability or company).RADAR, ground truthing or traditional imagery stereo comparison if not.
Then you use local historical rainfall data records to obtain ( at no effort to yourself) derived likely 10,20, 50, 100yr and RMF ( Recurrent Massive Flood ) contour flood levels. These levels you will then have as overlays on local DTM contour data.
Then you overlay the current commercial satellite imagery layer ,showing urbanisation, over your contour data and you can see the threat areas.
The , when it happens , it is a simple change detection exercise to lay the actual imagery over the historical model and read off the changes.
And , yes, I have done it for real , also using radar when cloud obscured the AOI.
Last edited by Haraka; 14th Feb 2014 at 19:21.
Tornados and Sentinel fly routine training sorties. These aircraft would have flown regardless of this tasking, so no extra cost. In fact I'd wager the Tornado task actually SAVED the taxpayer some money because the aircraft probably only flew once, instead of a more usual 2 or 3 times that day (due to the time needed to load and unload the pod). However, putting a BBC crew on the Sentinel probably cost a couple of WSOps a valuable sortie...
However, putting a BBC crew on the Sentinel
I'm with Haraka entirely on this - I don't believe a word of the RAF/Government PR on this story.
RAF PR should get real - in the internet age they can't mislead people with "top secret" gobbledygook anymore...
Last edited by Trim Stab; 14th Feb 2014 at 21:41.