What's the future of the Red Arrows?
Your real name is Sharky and I claim my reward!
Well, I did join the Navy with the feller, and later serve in Ark with (sorry, at the same time as) him, but that is the sum total of the connection.
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Cross pollinated from the AFPRB thread:
...about sums it up nicely I think. £11 Billion to countries that don't really need it anymore instead anyone.
The country has been living beyond its means for many years and even now the government is borrowing about £25 per week per person to fund its spending. If it's to balance the books it still needs to cut a £100bn a year from its budget...nearly 3 times the entire defence spending.
Back to the future? 
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The Red Arrows have always been (and still are) a great asset. A national treasure of which we're all proud. Okay, a few people will always raise silly questions of value-for-money, but a proper analysis of the team's value always illustrates that they have always been worth every penny.
But it seems pretty certain that their future is dictated by the remaining fatigue lives on their Hawks. There's no realistic prospect of replacing the Hawks so once they've reached the end of their useful lives in jut a few years from now, that must be the end of the team too. It will be an incredibly sad day when they go, but it seems inevitable.
As for BBMF, I think there will always be far too emotion connected with this issue. Realistically, all of the BBMF fleet would inevitably continue to fly if they were sold to civilian owners, therefore it does seem slightly absurd that spending is still allocated to them when they could all continue to fly in civilian hands.
Ultimately, both units are politically-touchy subjects and nobody has any appetite for "killing-off" either of them. Who would want to be painted as the man who destroyed the Red Arrows and the BBMF? However, when the RAFAT no longer have any Hawks, it's obviously easier to claim that disbandment is an inevitable consequence. Finding a similarly plausible excuse to dump the BBMF is rather more difficult!
Originally Posted by Wander00
How many of them could we muster - the Gnats, I mean
Loads in the USA though, I think at least 15 odd are flyers over there.
I would have thought once the Hawks are time expired it might be an idea to change to say a part time 4 ship Typhoon team under the OCU (of course with extra funding and people)
Develop a display that has a bit close formation work but lots of high speed full burner passes would more than make up for the lack of aircraft and not need to much of a work up to achieve.
Curtail the amount of displays they appear at so they can get some real work done and that sounds like a good compromise to me.
The tranche 1 jets are supposed to be getting the boot anyway so would make a perfect mount.
Develop a display that has a bit close formation work but lots of high speed full burner passes would more than make up for the lack of aircraft and not need to much of a work up to achieve.
Curtail the amount of displays they appear at so they can get some real work done and that sounds like a good compromise to me.
The tranche 1 jets are supposed to be getting the boot anyway so would make a perfect mount.
Gentleman Aviator
... my (usually well-informed) spies tell me the plan is to try and run the Reds on to 2018 and then do a farewell season for the RAF's centenary .......
........ always assuming the RAF lasts that long.......
........ always assuming the RAF lasts that long.......
....... of 21st January 2007.
Some discussions never change or move on...
BBMFs OSD is somewhere near 2035
I would have thought once the Hawks are time expired it might be an idea to change to say a part time 4 ship Typhoon team under the OCU (of course with extra funding and people)
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5 Forward 6 Back
As far as I'm aware, "accident rate" wasn't a factor.
There were several squadron and FTS teams in the 1950s and early 1960s. However, because of the time and money being spent on them and the loss of fighter squadrons because of budget constraints – plus ça change – the RAF disbanded them all in 1964 and tasked CFS to form one official full-time RAF team - the Red Pelicans.
Also in 1964, a team of 5 five yellow Gnats led by Flt Lt Lee Jones was formed at Valley to demonstrate the abilities of the new UK built Folland Gnat at Farnborough Airshow: the Yellowjacks.
The RAF decided to make them an official full-time team and, in 1965, posted Flt Lt Jones to Fairford, then an outpost of CFS, to form what became the Red Arrows. (The name was a combination of the very successful Black Arrows of Treble One and the CFS Red Pelicans.)
Flt Lt Ray Hanna, then a QFI at CFS, was selected for the team and flew as Red 3. Within a year, he was made Leader and promoted to Sqn Ldr.
His philosophy changed formation display flying for ever. Under his leadership, the Red Arrows almost instantly became a star attraction across the world and have remained one of the world's premier teams to this day.
Ray Hanna was a member of the team for 5 years and Leader for 4 – a record which I believe remains unbroken.
Tudor Owen
As far as I'm aware, "accident rate" wasn't a factor.
There were several squadron and FTS teams in the 1950s and early 1960s. However, because of the time and money being spent on them and the loss of fighter squadrons because of budget constraints – plus ça change – the RAF disbanded them all in 1964 and tasked CFS to form one official full-time RAF team - the Red Pelicans.
Also in 1964, a team of 5 five yellow Gnats led by Flt Lt Lee Jones was formed at Valley to demonstrate the abilities of the new UK built Folland Gnat at Farnborough Airshow: the Yellowjacks.
The RAF decided to make them an official full-time team and, in 1965, posted Flt Lt Jones to Fairford, then an outpost of CFS, to form what became the Red Arrows. (The name was a combination of the very successful Black Arrows of Treble One and the CFS Red Pelicans.)
Flt Lt Ray Hanna, then a QFI at CFS, was selected for the team and flew as Red 3. Within a year, he was made Leader and promoted to Sqn Ldr.
His philosophy changed formation display flying for ever. Under his leadership, the Red Arrows almost instantly became a star attraction across the world and have remained one of the world's premier teams to this day.
Ray Hanna was a member of the team for 5 years and Leader for 4 – a record which I believe remains unbroken.
Tudor Owen
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 16th Feb 2014 at 19:29.
Thanks for filling in the knowledge gaps! I did recall that we used to have numerous display teams (Black Arrows et al), but they were all disbanded when a formal RAF-wide team was formed.
I just found it ironic that after a decision being taken decades ago to have a single, full-time display team for various good reasons, we have people on this thread advocating we now get rid of the full-time team for one of part-timers again...
I just found it ironic that after a decision being taken decades ago to have a single, full-time display team for various good reasons, we have people on this thread advocating we now get rid of the full-time team for one of part-timers again...
Originally Posted by Roland Pulfrew
Quote:
BBMFs OSD is somewhere near 2035
Does BBMF actually have an OSD?
BBMFs OSD is somewhere near 2035
Does BBMF actually have an OSD?
The only manoeuvre that the Reds did that ever really impressed me was that start of their display about 20 years ago called "Piccadilly Circus" where they approached the display from all points of the compass and joined up in a vertical diamond 9. The ability to coordinate individual arrivals into such a neat formation filled me with awe.
Maybe I'm just old and cynical now but the Reds just don't quite have the appeal they once had...perhaps it's time for total rethink about where we should go with a display team.
Taking cover now!
Maybe I'm just old and cynical now but the Reds just don't quite have the appeal they once had...perhaps it's time for total rethink about where we should go with a display team.
Taking cover now!
I think things have changed from the 60s a bit!
A few less Sqns around these days!
With units like the RAFAT it will soon it will be a case of trying to hang onto something (anything) or lose it completely I would suggest.
I suggest many are reading the wrong lesson from history WRT part time teams.
A few less Sqns around these days!
With units like the RAFAT it will soon it will be a case of trying to hang onto something (anything) or lose it completely I would suggest.
I suggest many are reading the wrong lesson from history WRT part time teams.