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UK Maritime Patrol Aircraft - An Urgent Requirement

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UK Maritime Patrol Aircraft - An Urgent Requirement

Old 19th Mar 2015, 20:20
  #1041 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
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yes twas him and my thoughts exactly.... but you never know he might have got it from someone in the know.

Let's hope so.... it fits with call me dave's tighter fiscal management and the debt would be off the books a la Flash in the pan Gordon....... oh hang on a minute that didn't end well did it?

What's the view on the value for money argument on the C17's they where initially leased from Bubba? Perhaps we are poor enough now to get military assistance sales a la Israel?
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Old 19th Mar 2015, 21:06
  #1042 (permalink)  
 
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Sounds a bit like a warmed-over rerun of a rumour that was doing the rounds a few months ago - there was a PQ asking about plans to lease 4 P8s.

IIRC the lease-then-buy arrangement for the first 4 C17s turned out to be quite a pricey way of going about things. But at least we ended up with something decent to show for it, unlike the squillions p*ssed up the wall on MRA4 and the Harrier upgrade...
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Old 19th Mar 2015, 21:09
  #1043 (permalink)  
 
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Makes sense though.

Technology is evolving and if a stop-gap is needed before the promised big splurge in 2020 (I won't hold my breath) then a hand-back or final payment as part of the deal could fit the available purse.

This thread started off with a well reasoned - "there is no money", and indeed, there wasn't. But there is now - it's just being spent on reducing the debt and revamping museums.
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Old 20th Mar 2015, 06:55
  #1044 (permalink)  
 
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Stop gap? we've had a gap now for a number of years, why would we pay to stop it before the "Big splurge"?
And by the way, there is STILL NO MONEY.
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Old 20th Mar 2015, 07:17
  #1045 (permalink)  
 
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However leasing is cheaper in the near term than significant capital outlay. So if it was to happen it would be an affordable way to get back in the game and then buy out in 2020 when the deficit is cleared.

I would not be surprised if the question was a plant and the lease announced after the election was a good way of confirming dave's defence creds.
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Old 20th Mar 2015, 07:56
  #1046 (permalink)  
 
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unlike the squillions p*ssed up the wall on MRA4 and the Harrier upgrade...
I watched the Channel 4 Despatches programme the other day and it said 800M on MRA4. Wasn't it in the billions?
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Old 20th Mar 2015, 13:53
  #1047 (permalink)  
 
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They werent cut up at all. They were sold, anyone know how much we got for them?

Apparently -

The 2015 Report of the Committees on Arms Export Controls (CAEC) once again scrutinizes the Government’s arms exports and arms control policies and practices in unprecedented depth and detail.

Suggest the Web master does the same !


Extant arms exports exceed 5 billion - News from Parliament - UK Parliament

Last edited by Bannock; 20th Mar 2015 at 14:10.
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Old 20th Mar 2015, 14:46
  #1048 (permalink)  
 
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Bannock, when the Nimrod Heritage Group (and, I believe their successors - Morayvia) tried to buy XV240, they were quoted ~60k without engines. Whilst the detail is 'Commercial in Confidence', I believe that the ac delivered to museums throughout the country paid significantly less than that.

Duncs
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Old 20th Mar 2015, 15:11
  #1049 (permalink)  
 
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Bannock - not sure if you were quoting an earlier post? If so, I suspect you were aware that only a few MR2s were sold on to museums. The remainder and ALL the MRA4s were scrapped (behind screens in the case of the MRA4s). At the time, that felt like the final nail in the coffin of the whole cancellation debacle. Still seems massively wasteful today.
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Old 20th Mar 2015, 15:37
  #1050 (permalink)  
 
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Sorry guys, piss poor attempt at sarcasm!
I thought it was laughable that the just published Web report on defence exports features a Nimrod. Obviously there is sod all else out there that is worth displaying a picture of.
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Old 20th Mar 2015, 21:25
  #1051 (permalink)  
 
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DE&S are spending time Stateside adding fuel to the P8 rumours. The only way to bring in a capability quickly is to lease it like the C17. I wonder if we will hire the weapons and massive support train as well.
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Old 20th Mar 2015, 22:49
  #1052 (permalink)  
 
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Stop gap? we've had a gap now for a number of years, why would we pay to stop it before the "Big splurge"?
And by the way, there is STILL NO MONEY.
Jayand

You wouldn't - you'd pay to buy it if that is what the new force mix needed.

Beg to differ on the money point though - my point is that now there IS money, and we get a choice: Pay down the national debt in the short term and have even more money to play with later, or keep the high interest payments and make do with little defence investment.

Current chancellor wants the first option. That's slightly different from there being no money.
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Old 21st Mar 2015, 14:46
  #1053 (permalink)  
 
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I believe the Nimrod MR2 aeroplanes that were sold on to museums cost nothing except the cost of the fuel which was 5000 per aeroplane. I have no knowledge of the R1 however.
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Old 24th Mar 2015, 12:40
  #1054 (permalink)  
 
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The most recent publication from the select commitee is a a good read.
More or less states that assumptions made for SDSR 2010 was Boll&%$s.

House of Commons - Re-thinking defence to meet new threats - Defence

MPA requirement features heavily.
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Old 24th Mar 2015, 15:57
  #1055 (permalink)  
 
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Good call Bannock. I have read every word and virtually agree with every single word. It is either a wake up call to our political leadership or a horror story if you think our entire way of life is increasingly being threatened - noting that the ineffective defence leadership shown by any party revolves around burying heads in sand.

What an absolute f*cking mess we're in right now with our nations defensive plans stacked up against the real world and not a single word from any leading politician that seeks to readdress the balance.

Wake up and smell the coffee people.....
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Old 24th Mar 2015, 17:07
  #1056 (permalink)  
 
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It depends on your way of thinking of course, if for example we want to be a country that can continue to project force and power worldwide then yes that report is correct. What if we don't? what if the public don't really care about the odd Russian sub or a Bear doing circuits of the UK (In international airspace)? what if they're happy and content to be more like Denmark or the Netherlands? prosperous nations that have much smaller, cheaper, defence forces than ourselves?
Who says we have to be the ones to keep the Russians in check, the Syrians and Iranians etc.....? Perhaps the public want better hospitals, roads and schools etc?
Perhaps if we spent less on expeditionary warfare and more on homeland defence we would be less susceptible to homegrown terrorism?
Do we need Trident, could we have a less expensive, less capable but still credible nuclear deterrent? Do we need nukes at all?
When you answer those questions (Good luck) then you can start to worry about a new MPA.
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Old 24th Mar 2015, 17:28
  #1057 (permalink)  
 
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Brave man Jayand, brave man

just about everyone who posts in this thread believes the WHOLE point of the Uk is to project power overseas - thats what we've done for 200 years so thats what we should, MUST in fact, continue to do

Interesting to see someone come up with an alternative scenario.........

happy & prosperous sounds quite nice TBH
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Old 24th Mar 2015, 19:56
  #1058 (permalink)  
 
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Jayand,

This is exactly the point Neil Kinnock was prone to bang on about. Much more recently it is essentially what the SNP said repeatedly in the referendum campaign.

Rightly or wrongly (I make no judgement, and I'll hold my opinion) it is a view that is rapidly getting traction with many voters and it is an extremely popular view up north in jockland.

And we live in a democracy, in case anyone forgot.
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 14:31
  #1059 (permalink)  
 
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A very good point Jayand, not one that I subscribe to though.

I don't think it's a political issue but one of morality and ethics, no surprise that the politicians play on it then!

Do we decide to look the other way and ignore anything outside our little comfortable bubble? Maybe it is a sign of the times and our society has become totally materialistic and selfish.

Appeasement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 14:53
  #1060 (permalink)  
 
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Jayand


Your post made me think of ostriches and head-in-sand.


Another thought was loaves and butter. The polititians these days seem to behave like ostriches and only see what they want to see, and deny everything they don't!


Equally, they never seem to give the MOD/NHS/Police (or whatever) enough "butter" to properly cover all the slices in the "loaf". Nor will they cut the size of the loaf to match the available butter......call me cynical but I think it has always been thus, only thing is that we never seem to learn from past mistakes.


For my part, I believe that there are some responsibilities that only the State must do and that it can only ignore at its peril and that includes defence. Many of the other "responsibilities" such as pensions/welfare/social services etc. could (and some say should) be the responsibility of the individual citizen. Where you draw the line depends on what kind of politics you believe in, and (so far thankfully) we live in a free country.


MB
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