UK Maritime Patrol Aircraft - An Urgent Requirement
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Interesting point, but what if, as many MPs and commentators are now demanding, we make a commitment to keep defence spending at 2% of GDP?...I think the MoD would suddenly have a field day!
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The government would probably use an egregious technique of keeping it down, such as saying "2% of GDP that's left over after the ring-fenced budget of: health/benefits/foreign aid/education/etc. etc."
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As I have posted elsewhere - it's the deficit stoopid!
Which seems not to get much/any exposure. It's quite simply the excess of expenditure over income.
We've all been there some months; say £3k coming in and £3.5k going out
The plastic eases the squeeze temporarily, albeit at some cost. But you can't keep doing it.
UK plc is spending as we speak £3k every second more than its income, even with all the (so called) "austerity" and "cuts".
It's not about the debt (which is of course increasing) it's about the defecit. Whoever is lucky (sic) enough to get the keys to No 10 in May, will find a cocktail cabinet full of poisoned chalices.
It will all end in tears - Wilkins Micawber understood the principle well:
Which seems not to get much/any exposure. It's quite simply the excess of expenditure over income.
We've all been there some months; say £3k coming in and £3.5k going out
The plastic eases the squeeze temporarily, albeit at some cost. But you can't keep doing it.UK plc is spending as we speak £3k every second more than its income, even with all the (so called) "austerity" and "cuts".
It's not about the debt (which is of course increasing) it's about the defecit. Whoever is lucky (sic) enough to get the keys to No 10 in May, will find a cocktail cabinet full of poisoned chalices.
It will all end in tears - Wilkins Micawber understood the principle well:
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds nought and six, result misery
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"Its the defecit Stoopid"
SDSR 2015 ? The 2% Version - Part 1 - Think Defence
SDSR 2015 ? The 2% Version - Part 2 - Think Defence
As the author admits there is a fair measure of fag packet maths in this but by the governments own admition, the continued deficit is due in the main to the lack of Tax revenue from years of austerity and wage restraint. Now HMG is promoting wage increases ( to the private sector) to contribute to further a reduction in debt.
I cant really get hung up about defence spending dropping to 1.8% GDP. Surely, and am happy to be corrected, but when it comes to pounds and pence isnt 1.8% percent of an economy that is booming and the envy of the majority of the western economies equate to more cash than 2% of an economy that is in reverse. 1.8% may well be more than we have had to spend in a long time.
UK GDP figures from www.ukpublicspending.co.uk
2010 1432.9 Billion = 28.658 Billion @ 2%
2011 1499 Billion
2012 1546.7 Billion
2013 1575.7 Billion
2014 1641 Billion = 32.82 Billion @ 2%
Not sure what next years figures are but at worst we just might be maintaining the Status Quo.
Now concider that we are now leaner , meaner and at SDSR 2010 mandated manning levels (standfast the Reserves !) and we are rolling over underspends. I dont think the nation will implode if we do dip below.
However DCs cred with the Yanks will be lower than a "snakes ass in a wagon wheel rut" after his Cardiff promise though.
Ok, Prooners of an acounting persuation with a glass thats half empty, Your turn !
SDSR 2015 ? The 2% Version - Part 1 - Think Defence
SDSR 2015 ? The 2% Version - Part 2 - Think Defence
As the author admits there is a fair measure of fag packet maths in this but by the governments own admition, the continued deficit is due in the main to the lack of Tax revenue from years of austerity and wage restraint. Now HMG is promoting wage increases ( to the private sector) to contribute to further a reduction in debt.
I cant really get hung up about defence spending dropping to 1.8% GDP. Surely, and am happy to be corrected, but when it comes to pounds and pence isnt 1.8% percent of an economy that is booming and the envy of the majority of the western economies equate to more cash than 2% of an economy that is in reverse. 1.8% may well be more than we have had to spend in a long time.
UK GDP figures from www.ukpublicspending.co.uk
2010 1432.9 Billion = 28.658 Billion @ 2%
2011 1499 Billion
2012 1546.7 Billion
2013 1575.7 Billion
2014 1641 Billion = 32.82 Billion @ 2%
Not sure what next years figures are but at worst we just might be maintaining the Status Quo.
Now concider that we are now leaner , meaner and at SDSR 2010 mandated manning levels (standfast the Reserves !) and we are rolling over underspends. I dont think the nation will implode if we do dip below.
However DCs cred with the Yanks will be lower than a "snakes ass in a wagon wheel rut" after his Cardiff promise though.
Ok, Prooners of an acounting persuation with a glass thats half empty, Your turn !
Last edited by Bannock; 11th Feb 2015 at 20:05.
I don't see the A321Neo-LR as being a brilliant solution. However, it is a reminder that bits of the P-8A are not state-of-the-art (mechanically scanned radar) and it is compromised by the USN's desire to carry the monster AAS radar and ASuW standoff weapons.
Meanwhile, Airbus has demonstrated the ability to integrate ASW platforms, and Thales UK + European Selex is seriously world-class on acoustics, radar and ESM. So start with an A319Neo or A320Neo. UK does not need a weapons bay because Stingray is electric (as will any replacement be) and its fuel does not freeze.
I know this will never happen, but it's an interesting benchmark against which to measure P-8, which is a direct import and ties the UK to the USN's future upgrade path.
Meanwhile, Airbus has demonstrated the ability to integrate ASW platforms, and Thales UK + European Selex is seriously world-class on acoustics, radar and ESM. So start with an A319Neo or A320Neo. UK does not need a weapons bay because Stingray is electric (as will any replacement be) and its fuel does not freeze.
I know this will never happen, but it's an interesting benchmark against which to measure P-8, which is a direct import and ties the UK to the USN's future upgrade path.
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Sometime back in 2000-and-a-long-time-ago, some one started a thread in over in the flying training forum about global economics and what it meant for pilot recruitment. It went on for years and thousands of posts.
It's probably still there if you wish to waste a few hours looking for it.
And that that awesome feat of internetism proved one thing beyond all reasonable doubt.
Aviators know **** all about economics.
Let's not turn this thread into a rerun...pretty please.
There are highly decorated economists that don't really have a clue how this is all going turn out...let alone bottom-of-the-class-fatboy-at-the-back politicians.
The idea of politicians "encouraging" industry to give pay raises...seriously. Anyone who has ever sat in a boardroom, knows that is just media vomit for the masses.
Suffice to say there ain't no money unless the RAF does something pretty drastic. One way or the other...we don't have too long to wait until we know for sure the end game.
It's probably still there if you wish to waste a few hours looking for it.
And that that awesome feat of internetism proved one thing beyond all reasonable doubt.
Aviators know **** all about economics.
Let's not turn this thread into a rerun...pretty please.
There are highly decorated economists that don't really have a clue how this is all going turn out...let alone bottom-of-the-class-fatboy-at-the-back politicians.
The idea of politicians "encouraging" industry to give pay raises...seriously. Anyone who has ever sat in a boardroom, knows that is just media vomit for the masses.
Suffice to say there ain't no money unless the RAF does something pretty drastic. One way or the other...we don't have too long to wait until we know for sure the end game.
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UK does not need a weapons bay because Stingray is electric (as will any replacement be) and its fuel does not freeze.
Regarding carriage of torpedoes, while Stingray uses seawater as an electrolyte, it is by no means certain that the next generation of batteries will use the same technology. Who knows we might even have to resort to stored chemical energy power sources as used in the Mk50 or lithium boilers which were being developed in UK.
Even if Stingray does not have an electrolyte which might freeze, the parachute pack wont take kindly to prolonged cold soak!
Thanks, Nimbey - one learns something every day here.
But even so, an advantage to a clean-sheet approach is that you wouldn't have to put the weapons bay in the wrong end to make room for this:
But even so, an advantage to a clean-sheet approach is that you wouldn't have to put the weapons bay in the wrong end to make room for this:
The French will be looking for an Atlantique replacement at some point. They may have bought Boeing in the past (C-135F, E-3F), but I find it hard to swallow that they'll placidly get on the phone to Seattle and sign up for the P-8 without being prepared to go for an A320-based solution first.
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The article is mainly about extending the seedcorn programme, rather than a firm commitment to regenerate the capability.
Indeed the extension of seedcorn could be seen simply as an indication that any decision is likely to be delayed or postponed in the short term.
Indeed the extension of seedcorn could be seen simply as an indication that any decision is likely to be delayed or postponed in the short term.
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Biggus old chap,
I did read it thanks, you also seem to have invented an entire set of assumption on what may or may not happen. I just provided a factual link to demonstrate that there are currently funds planned to be available.
Ref FY17/18, don't we start planning about 2 years in advance? i.e: ABC 17 will be starting soon, therefore an extension to Seedcorn would be logical to keep our regeneration option open in 3ish year timeframe.
Some of the recent posts are going over old ground again -
We do not want to develop a new aircraft, A320 or whatever is not plausable.
Name a non-mechanically scanned effective MPA ASUW/ASW radar? Some have AESA but still spin, AFAIK there are enough disadvantages to make mechanically scanning still the best option.
The French are updating the ATL2
P-8 AAS and ASUW weapons capability is a bad thing and compromises the platfrom? Or offers a multirole platform with hugh potential for growth
Ivan,
If you read the document obtained by your own link, and look at the graph and table for ABC 14 on page 9, you will see that none of your contingency and headroom funding is available until FY17/18 (£345m) and significant funding only becomes available in subsequent years. Classic jam tomorrow which we will trumpet today.
If you read the document obtained by your own link, and look at the graph and table for ABC 14 on page 9, you will see that none of your contingency and headroom funding is available until FY17/18 (£345m) and significant funding only becomes available in subsequent years. Classic jam tomorrow which we will trumpet today.
Ref FY17/18, don't we start planning about 2 years in advance? i.e: ABC 17 will be starting soon, therefore an extension to Seedcorn would be logical to keep our regeneration option open in 3ish year timeframe.
Some of the recent posts are going over old ground again -
We do not want to develop a new aircraft, A320 or whatever is not plausable.
Name a non-mechanically scanned effective MPA ASUW/ASW radar? Some have AESA but still spin, AFAIK there are enough disadvantages to make mechanically scanning still the best option.
The French are updating the ATL2
P-8 AAS and ASUW weapons capability is a bad thing and compromises the platfrom? Or offers a multirole platform with hugh potential for growth
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As I have posted elsewhere - it's the deficit stoopid!
Which seems not to get much/any exposure. It's quite simply the excess of expenditure over income.
We've all been there some months; say £3k coming in and £3.5k going out The plastic eases the squeeze temporarily, albeit at some cost. But you can't keep doing it.
UK plc is spending as we speak £3k every second more than its income, even with all the (so called) "austerity" and "cuts".
It's not about the debt (which is of course increasing) it's about the defecit. Whoever is lucky (sic) enough to get the keys to No 10 in May, will find a cocktail cabinet full of poisoned chalices.
It will all end in tears - Wilkins Micawber understood the principle well:
Which seems not to get much/any exposure. It's quite simply the excess of expenditure over income.
We've all been there some months; say £3k coming in and £3.5k going out The plastic eases the squeeze temporarily, albeit at some cost. But you can't keep doing it.
UK plc is spending as we speak £3k every second more than its income, even with all the (so called) "austerity" and "cuts".
It's not about the debt (which is of course increasing) it's about the defecit. Whoever is lucky (sic) enough to get the keys to No 10 in May, will find a cocktail cabinet full of poisoned chalices.
It will all end in tears - Wilkins Micawber understood the principle well:
If the NHS can afford to be ring fenced, then why not the defence budget? Indeed any other budget that is deemed politically difficult to cut?...indeed the total savings required outside of the welfare budget will be c.£12 billion under the Tory (harshest) proposals. Hardly outside the realms of the possible, given the size of the overall budget.
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UK does not need a weapons bay because Stingray is electric (as will any replacement be) and its fuel does not freeze.
Slightly elementary analysis there...debt can still fall at a certain deficit threshold,
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But even so, an advantage to a clean-sheet approach is that you wouldn't have to put the weapons bay in the wrong end.......
Apparently the aft bomb bay in the B-1 bomber, located even further behind the wing than the P-8, and the B-52 bomb bay, located aft of the rear wing spar, are both "wrong" too. Yeah shur.
The P-1 has a 360-degree fixed AESA, I believe. And yes, there are rotating AESAs. The P-8 radar's an interesting, unique solution.
As for AAS and ASuW: 19 feet of fuselage and c. 3,000 lb wing pylons are not going to help with the OEW.
As for AAS and ASuW: 19 feet of fuselage and c. 3,000 lb wing pylons are not going to help with the OEW.