UK Maritime Patrol Aircraft - An Urgent Requirement
An MPA has always been a multi mission aircraft. It's primary role is and remains ASW and there is no other tool in the toolbox that can do what an MPA does in this area. It's secondary role is ASuW, with the ability to provide sensor to shooter capability in rapid time. The Falklands war proved just how deadly a long range air to surface anti ship missile can be. Thirdly is an overland ISR capability which was conducted for many years over both AFG and Iraq. LRSAR is really a bonus capability and most certainly not the primary role. However, a certain oil rig event in the 80's (Piper A), showed just how valuabLe an MPA was as a Scene of Action Commander. Similarly, a Rod was first on the scene for the Air India disaster in 1985 where the crew did visually identify wreckage in the water and confirm the location of the incident. Richard Branson could also tell you how much he valued the services of a Nimrod during a couple of his adventures.
So , 4 clearly defined capabilities that are still required with the potential to expand into Sentinel and RJ territory. Oh, and had the MRA4, made it into service, it had the ability to carry 6 Storm Shadow with a 14 hour loiter abilty. That would have been nice off Libya don't you think?
So , 4 clearly defined capabilities that are still required with the potential to expand into Sentinel and RJ territory. Oh, and had the MRA4, made it into service, it had the ability to carry 6 Storm Shadow with a 14 hour loiter abilty. That would have been nice off Libya don't you think?
Oh, and had the MRA4, made it into service, it had the ability to carry 6 Storm Shadow with a 14 hour loiter abilty
Nice mock up photo from the company, though. It certainly hooked a few into thinking it might happen!
iRaven
PS. Why would we bother when the RN could deliver TLAM from a boat instead?
Yeah, dream on matey. Even if waste o'space could have made it work, then the Libyan Mig 23s and Mig 25s would have made mincemeat of it
And as for this:
PS. Why would we bother when the RN could deliver TLAM from a boat instead?
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Chaps,
Just a word to the wise...it's "hydrophone". But please continue with your insightful, adroit and well-researched musings on maritime operations. They are an education to us all.
Just a word to the wise...it's "hydrophone". But please continue with your insightful, adroit and well-researched musings on maritime operations. They are an education to us all.
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Good News
The performance of the "allied" crew indeed shows that the skills needed for MPA operations are alive and well, it also shows that it won't be long before funds are found to buy the P-8 in the near future with the MPA task being split between manned and unmanned aircraft.
Those who morn the Nimrod should understand that the cutting up of the new aircraft was nessesary to show BAe that UK PLC was would no longer put up with being ripped off by a company that continually overcharged and underperformed. ( you would have thought BAe would have got the message when they did not get the Buldog life extension program )
My hope is that the RAF will soon have a fleet of P-8's that are built to the US Navy spec with as little UK kit as posable. Then we will have a fighting chance of getting the MPA role filled on time and on budget.
Those who morn the Nimrod should understand that the cutting up of the new aircraft was nessesary to show BAe that UK PLC was would no longer put up with being ripped off by a company that continually overcharged and underperformed. ( you would have thought BAe would have got the message when they did not get the Buldog life extension program )
My hope is that the RAF will soon have a fleet of P-8's that are built to the US Navy spec with as little UK kit as posable. Then we will have a fighting chance of getting the MPA role filled on time and on budget.
I have not seen such utter nonsense for a long time; you must be a FJ driver. Hilarious! I always thought that the purpose of a long range stand off missile was so that you stand off!!
Seeing as Storm Shadow is supposed to be a weapon to take down an IADS, floating along at 'standoff' of a couple of hundred miles in a MPA that does probably .7M at best with all these mythical Storm Shadows underneath, would make it very vulnerable. Now you could jettison them all when the Foxbat or Foxhound makes the charge - but hey, that's a mission kill anyway. There won't be any escort to look after you because we had to shelve 3 sqns of FJs to buy the great white elephant at £3.8Bn (read MPA pretending to be a stategic bomber).
Anyway, I'll go back to my 'utter nonsense' and dream of FJ 'seedcorn' because we're going to need that soon with the 7 remaining FJ FL sqns. Maybe they'll send me to Miramar to fly the Hornet!
iRaven
A Mig25 flies at about 25 miles a minute (faster if flat out), and if the Grimrod is staggering along at 7 miles a minute
seeing as Storm Shadow is supposed to be a weapon to take down an IADS
It gets better though
shelve 3 sqns of fast jets
And if we want rumours, there is a rumour that the FJ-mafia got rid of MRA4 because an aircraft capable of delivering precision strike anywhere in the world within 24 hrs (mythical or not) undermined the whole raison d'être of the FJ fleet. But this is only a rumour of course.
Storm Shadow's range (using Jane's figure of 500km) is about half that of the AGM-86 and a quarter that of TLAM.... which means that its launch platform needs to be prepared to penetrate defences and achieve mission success even after losing a couple of aircraft. I wouldn't fancy trying that in the 'Rod, especially with no bailout option.
Yup, agreed, it was a cloud cuckoo land idea dreamt up by the company and those that grew up in the V force era. I'm sure the fighter jocks from our adversaries would have been rubbing their hands with glee at such an easy target.
By the way Stormshadow was developed to take down the hardened facilities that make up IADS. This is exactly what it was used for in GW2 on its first operational jaunt - I remember being with the mission planners down the hole at PJHQ.
As others have sensibly said on other threads recently on MPAs (and aren't there so many of them on Prune these days!), we must try not to dilute the argument for a MPA. They are not the panacea some would have us believe for LRSAR and also strategic strike in a contested air environment - but they are very good at patrolling large expanses of water and helping keep our V-boats safe. If only we hadn't wasted £3.8Bn on a sow's ear, we might have some MPAs in service and a few more FJ sqns out of the change.
LJ
PS. This made me laugh out loud...
...this exactly why we have had to scrap Harrier and some Tornados early - we squandered the cash years before on the sow's ear's development. The defence budget isn't a bottomless pot you know, and the budget normally has a 10 year plan - so if you spend it on one project you won't be able to spend it on something else. 
By the way Stormshadow was developed to take down the hardened facilities that make up IADS. This is exactly what it was used for in GW2 on its first operational jaunt - I remember being with the mission planners down the hole at PJHQ.
As others have sensibly said on other threads recently on MPAs (and aren't there so many of them on Prune these days!), we must try not to dilute the argument for a MPA. They are not the panacea some would have us believe for LRSAR and also strategic strike in a contested air environment - but they are very good at patrolling large expanses of water and helping keep our V-boats safe. If only we hadn't wasted £3.8Bn on a sow's ear, we might have some MPAs in service and a few more FJ sqns out of the change.
LJ
PS. This made me laugh out loud...
What we lost was 2 sqns of MMA. The decision over FJ numbers was between GR7/9 and GR4. The money on MRA4 was already spent; support costs for your FJ fleet was down to support costs for your FJ Fleet. But never let the truth get in the way of a good rumour.
In March 2011 some 120 TLAMs launched by US and UK boats and some key strikes by B2s on airfields took down the Libyan's air defence capabilities in very short order. But the difference between the B2 and the N-word is that one is designed for first night attack with an exceptionally low RCS and the other is based upon a 1950s airliner for MPA duties with an RCS the size of Wembley Stadium!
"During Operation Ellamy, UK forces employed a combined total of around 80 Storm Shadow and Tomahawk land-attack missiles," armed forces minister Andrew Robathan said in response to a parliamentary question in the House of Commons on 22 October 2011. Whilst not giving away the precise numbers it is believed that 3/4s were TLAMs. They used these because of the significant number of SAMs (inlduding S-200
) which is not the place to be waffling about in a modified MPA!
LJ
"During Operation Ellamy, UK forces employed a combined total of around 80 Storm Shadow and Tomahawk land-attack missiles," armed forces minister Andrew Robathan said in response to a parliamentary question in the House of Commons on 22 October 2011. Whilst not giving away the precise numbers it is believed that 3/4s were TLAMs. They used these because of the significant number of SAMs (inlduding S-200
) which is not the place to be waffling about in a modified MPA!LJ
Last edited by Lima Juliet; 12th Apr 2014 at 23:38.
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Oh how I love your patronising tone!
"Aren't there so many of them on here now?!"
Nice.
"Aren't there so many of them on here now?!"
Nice.
Last edited by betty swallox; 13th Apr 2014 at 22:46.
The defence budget isn't a bottomless pot you know, and the budget normally has a 10 year plan - so if you spend it on one project you won't be able to spend it on something else
And just to return to Ravers ravings, no-one would be foolish enough to suggest tooled up MPAs flying down valleys at 200' or mixing it with Foxbats. The clue is in the word 'contested' as used by LJ.
A study of Ellamy shows how significant a part Canadian Auroras played and we all know Sentinel made it's mark. Neither at risk from Libyan fast air. Similarly, an orbit off the coast of Yugoslavia would have enabled weapons with endurance and virtually no risk to the platform.
Sadly, I can't see anything of the sort happening with the RAF. With our leadership being predominantly FJ, vision is totally lacking at the defend roles for FJ at all costs. Bet your life if we do regain an MPA Force, the new sqn bosses will come from the FJ world, because they are the ISR experts obviously!
A study of Ellamy shows how significant a part Canadian Auroras played and we all know Sentinel made it's mark. Neither at risk from Libyan fast air. Similarly, an orbit off the coast of Yugoslavia would have enabled weapons with endurance and virtually no risk to the platform.
Sadly, I can't see anything of the sort happening with the RAF. With our leadership being predominantly FJ, vision is totally lacking at the defend roles for FJ at all costs. Bet your life if we do regain an MPA Force, the new sqn bosses will come from the FJ world, because they are the ISR experts obviously!
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No matter how many wonderful drones we have pootling about in the transatlantic tracks and other busy air environments around our shores, in the words of one of those in the senior ranks of the MH370 search, "there is still no substitute for the Mark 1 Human Eyeball when looking for something in the ocean.....".
Even if we do have a fleet of drones, if something does require a search, there are no seats on a drone to fit a set of eyeballs, human, mark 1......
So with a drone, patrol yes, search maybe, rescue doubtful in the extreme.
One can only surmise that the MOD beancounters have reckoned that it's not economic to rescue aircrew. Must be marginally cheaper to train new crew, but then again, considering the lead time for new airframes, not surprising.
Even if we do have a fleet of drones, if something does require a search, there are no seats on a drone to fit a set of eyeballs, human, mark 1......
So with a drone, patrol yes, search maybe, rescue doubtful in the extreme.
One can only surmise that the MOD beancounters have reckoned that it's not economic to rescue aircrew. Must be marginally cheaper to train new crew, but then again, considering the lead time for new airframes, not surprising.
I can't see the UK going for just an MQ-4 solution - a P-8/Triton mix as with USN and RAAF perhaps, which would give mk 1 eyeball.
Regarding MH370 (Am I the only one who still thinks 'Spitfire' when they see that written?), the mk 1 eyeball isn't going to find an aluminium tube 4 miles underwater (Unlikely much else would either) and the surface searches haven't found anything anyway!
Regarding MH370 (Am I the only one who still thinks 'Spitfire' when they see that written?), the mk 1 eyeball isn't going to find an aluminium tube 4 miles underwater (Unlikely much else would either) and the surface searches haven't found anything anyway!
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the mk 1 eyeball isn't going to find an aluminium tube 4 miles underwater
Even in a controlled ditching, the tube tends to get holes in it and floaty bits fall out or sticky out bits fall off and then, float.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Aluminium tube was found on the bottom, even my mk1 eyeball with corrective lenses might spot that from the beam/observers window.
Last edited by Surplus; 14th Apr 2014 at 05:00.
Strategic Strike?
What a laugh ... we have only one long range bomber in the RAF right now and that is the Lancaster.
An ancient Tornado lugging around a pair of StormShadows looks very impressive taking off from the UK, to plug into tanker after tanker after tanker to reach it's intended target in North Africa.
But...
... in a fast changing land battle what are you going to do with your heavy expensive StormShadow whiz-bangs if the target it was programmed to hit (when it was back on the ground in the UK) is no longer viable?
The long range patrol 'plane that was cut up was going to be able to re-programme the missile whilst in the area (before launch) - to accommodated changes in the fluid target situation. Provided it could safely get to the launch point, one of the few reasons left to still have 'fighters'.
Whether it was ever affordable of course is debatable - but it did highlight an area which needs to be addressed.
If we need a long range penetrating bomber then we'd better get on with it and stop pretending that we have one. Strapping missiles under a patrol 'plane is just as much a lash-up as hanging them off swing-wing wonder jets designed to blat targets in East Germany and expecting them to fly well beyond their intended range.
For what it's worth a patrol plane could probably bring back unused missiles to base. Probably not something a Tonka could do ... or would do ... with the press watching.
Time we all stopped bashing each others favourite sacred cows, easy and amusing though this can be, and realise that a range of platforms (aircraft, ships and boats) is required if we are going to be asked to do a range of strategic roles.
This thread is supposed to be about a Long Range Maritime Patrol aircraft, it is amusing to read so much from people who clearly have little idea of what that actually means.
good fun though ...
ping
An ancient Tornado lugging around a pair of StormShadows looks very impressive taking off from the UK, to plug into tanker after tanker after tanker to reach it's intended target in North Africa.
But...
... in a fast changing land battle what are you going to do with your heavy expensive StormShadow whiz-bangs if the target it was programmed to hit (when it was back on the ground in the UK) is no longer viable?
The long range patrol 'plane that was cut up was going to be able to re-programme the missile whilst in the area (before launch) - to accommodated changes in the fluid target situation. Provided it could safely get to the launch point, one of the few reasons left to still have 'fighters'.
Whether it was ever affordable of course is debatable - but it did highlight an area which needs to be addressed.
If we need a long range penetrating bomber then we'd better get on with it and stop pretending that we have one. Strapping missiles under a patrol 'plane is just as much a lash-up as hanging them off swing-wing wonder jets designed to blat targets in East Germany and expecting them to fly well beyond their intended range.
For what it's worth a patrol plane could probably bring back unused missiles to base. Probably not something a Tonka could do ... or would do ... with the press watching.
Time we all stopped bashing each others favourite sacred cows, easy and amusing though this can be, and realise that a range of platforms (aircraft, ships and boats) is required if we are going to be asked to do a range of strategic roles.
This thread is supposed to be about a Long Range Maritime Patrol aircraft, it is amusing to read so much from people who clearly have little idea of what that actually means.
good fun though ...
ping
Party Animal. I think your view of the RAF as fast jet centred is a bit out of date. In a couple of years we will have a total of 6 FJ Squadrons. How do you think the "FJ Leadership" is doing at "Defending roles for FJ at all costs"?
Timelord,
total of 6 FJ Squadrons. How do you think the "FJ Leadership" is doing at "Defending roles for FJ at all costs"?
That's 6 more than the 4 relatively recent MPA sqns we used to have Timelord.
total of 6 FJ Squadrons. How do you think the "FJ Leadership" is doing at "Defending roles for FJ at all costs"?
That's 6 more than the 4 relatively recent MPA sqns we used to have Timelord.