US Pave Hawk down
The media know very well that eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable, and every proper expert tells them that before they are wheeled on.
But..............
Joe public watches the news more if detail, no matter how unlikely or wrong, is included, and the more dramatic the better.
..and Joe public then keeps watching that channel/buys stuff from the advertisers on that channel, etc.
..and what's the 'expert' to do? The media pays well, and the world is better off listening to an expert for half the item than another 3 eyewitnesses relating how they felt about whatever it was they did(n't) see.
Conclusion: Journalism is not a information profession, it's entertainment. I won't have them in the house.
But..............
Joe public watches the news more if detail, no matter how unlikely or wrong, is included, and the more dramatic the better.
..and Joe public then keeps watching that channel/buys stuff from the advertisers on that channel, etc.
..and what's the 'expert' to do? The media pays well, and the world is better off listening to an expert for half the item than another 3 eyewitnesses relating how they felt about whatever it was they did(n't) see.
Conclusion: Journalism is not a information profession, it's entertainment. I won't have them in the house.
Thread Starter
I cannot believe what I heard a short time ago on BBC News24!!
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Bristol.
Posts: 207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: Kalgoorlie, W.A. , Australia
Age: 86
Posts: 458
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Myth "Norfolk is flat"
The accident site is on a strip of sea level marshland. However this strip is only about 1 km wide (expanding westwards & narrowing eastwards). This strip is backed by steeply rising land forming a 200 - 300 foot heathland plateau (The Holt Cromer ridge).
So this accident is not necessarily a near ground incident.
The accident site is on a strip of sea level marshland. However this strip is only about 1 km wide (expanding westwards & narrowing eastwards). This strip is backed by steeply rising land forming a 200 - 300 foot heathland plateau (The Holt Cromer ridge).
So this accident is not necessarily a near ground incident.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 33,064
Received 2,937 Likes
on
1,252 Posts
Crew have been named and the bodies are being recovered 
BBC News - Helicopter crash: 'No warning' before Pave Hawk came down
BBC News - Helicopter crash: 'No warning' before Pave Hawk came down
Apart from the possibility of a birdstrike I am sure that investigators will also concentrate on the physical geography and the crew's familiarity of the area.
In recent years the shingle bank that runs from Salthouse to Cley has been breached and indeed several weeks or so ago inundated by the sea during stormy weather. This has led to significant erosion and in some places the bank is now lower than in others. This may be the case at the accident site where the bank was already relatively low for there is evidence from aerial photographs of shingle and sand being swept towards the marsh. The second helicopter landed on this bit of inundation.
What I suggest might have happened is pure speculation.
A) That the helicopter approached the shingle bank directly from the sea at very low height.
B) The tide was out at the time (Low tide at Cromer was at 1717 hrs) and visibility was good. It was dark.
C) The beach along this stretch of coast shelves quite steeply and could therefore possibly give the illusion to the crew as they approached that the shingle bank was higher than it actually is.
D) That the crew planned to drop the aircraft down on to the other side of the shingle bank and fly parallel to it.
C) That in the course of executing a turn to do this the helicopter struck the ground.
I repeat that this is pure speculation and that I have no evidence apart from the fact that the tide was out.
Moderator please feel free to remove if deemed inappropriate.
In recent years the shingle bank that runs from Salthouse to Cley has been breached and indeed several weeks or so ago inundated by the sea during stormy weather. This has led to significant erosion and in some places the bank is now lower than in others. This may be the case at the accident site where the bank was already relatively low for there is evidence from aerial photographs of shingle and sand being swept towards the marsh. The second helicopter landed on this bit of inundation.
What I suggest might have happened is pure speculation.
A) That the helicopter approached the shingle bank directly from the sea at very low height.
B) The tide was out at the time (Low tide at Cromer was at 1717 hrs) and visibility was good. It was dark.
C) The beach along this stretch of coast shelves quite steeply and could therefore possibly give the illusion to the crew as they approached that the shingle bank was higher than it actually is.
D) That the crew planned to drop the aircraft down on to the other side of the shingle bank and fly parallel to it.
C) That in the course of executing a turn to do this the helicopter struck the ground.
I repeat that this is pure speculation and that I have no evidence apart from the fact that the tide was out.
Moderator please feel free to remove if deemed inappropriate.
Last edited by OUAQUKGF Ops; 11th Jan 2014 at 16:36.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 33,064
Received 2,937 Likes
on
1,252 Posts
I was surprised the other one stayed on scene for days, all I can think was it was either to recover their bodies home or possibly as a reference for those looking at the wreckage and needing accounts of what happened from witnesses on site..
Sea floods in North Norfolk - YouTube
This film shot during a storm in 2007 shows the beach and shingle bank along this stretch of coast.
This film shot during a storm in 2007 shows the beach and shingle bank along this stretch of coast.
Last edited by OUAQUKGF Ops; 14th Jan 2014 at 13:05.
Salthouse freshmarsh inundation Norfolk UK 6th December 2013 - YouTube
This short film shows flooding at Salthouse 2013. The accident site is only a little further up the coast.
This short film shows flooding at Salthouse 2013. The accident site is only a little further up the coast.
Last edited by OUAQUKGF Ops; 10th Jan 2014 at 21:12.
Salthouse 2008 - YouTube
At the beginning of this film you will see the shingle bank from the edge of the marshes. I guess it is about twenty feet high here - it is quite a bit lower a little further up the coast where the accident happened. For those of you who like a bit of bird - watching enjoy the rest of the film!
At the beginning of this film you will see the shingle bank from the edge of the marshes. I guess it is about twenty feet high here - it is quite a bit lower a little further up the coast where the accident happened. For those of you who like a bit of bird - watching enjoy the rest of the film!
Last edited by OUAQUKGF Ops; 11th Jan 2014 at 06:58.
Eyewitness describes Norfolk helicopter crash - video - YouTube
Here you can see that much of the shingle bank at Cley has been swept away. Bernard Bishop is much respected in these parts. His remark about the helicopter "sitting" must be in respect of the second helicopter. In another interview he stated that the weather had been perfect with very little wind, just a light sou-westerley.
Here you can see that much of the shingle bank at Cley has been swept away. Bernard Bishop is much respected in these parts. His remark about the helicopter "sitting" must be in respect of the second helicopter. In another interview he stated that the weather had been perfect with very little wind, just a light sou-westerley.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: England
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The shingle bank hasn't been washed away - it's been flattened by being pushed inland.
Since the 1953 floods that shingle bank has been continuously bulldozed into a pyramid of much greater height than natural - it's done continuously because every storm tends to flatten the bank. In 2007 Defra decided to stop bulldozing and let nature take it's course - which would gradually mean the shingle bank flattening into a much lower, wider shape and the freshwater marsh between the shingle bank and higher land along the road alignment would gradually revert to saltmarsh but still protect Cley and Salthouse villages from the effects of storms. This gradual reversion was expected to take decades but December 2013's storms and storm surge which was higher than the 1953 surge has done most of that already.
The companion helicopter is sitting on loose gravel, the result of these recent storms - the aerial photos of the scene show the debris field on the edge of the marshland next to the pool - an area only recently visible after sitting in 2+ m of storm surge sea water - so some of the debris may be well buried in the exceedingly soft "ground" - peaty silt more like.
Since the 1953 floods that shingle bank has been continuously bulldozed into a pyramid of much greater height than natural - it's done continuously because every storm tends to flatten the bank. In 2007 Defra decided to stop bulldozing and let nature take it's course - which would gradually mean the shingle bank flattening into a much lower, wider shape and the freshwater marsh between the shingle bank and higher land along the road alignment would gradually revert to saltmarsh but still protect Cley and Salthouse villages from the effects of storms. This gradual reversion was expected to take decades but December 2013's storms and storm surge which was higher than the 1953 surge has done most of that already.
The companion helicopter is sitting on loose gravel, the result of these recent storms - the aerial photos of the scene show the debris field on the edge of the marshland next to the pool - an area only recently visible after sitting in 2+ m of storm surge sea water - so some of the debris may be well buried in the exceedingly soft "ground" - peaty silt more like.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
OO,
Parallel in which direction?
In reference to the comment;
Seems unlikely.
As we used to have to, can anyone confirm whether 'recent' daytime route recces still take place?
D) That the crew planned to drop the aircraft down on to the other side of the shingle bank and fly parallel to it.
In reference to the comment;
C) The beach along this stretch of coast shelves quite steeply and could therefore possibly give the illusion to the crew as they approached that the shingle bank was higher than it actually is.
As we used to have to, can anyone confirm whether 'recent' daytime route recces still take place?
To the east - as per debris trail. Turn completed despite initial contact by Rotor?
For continuity please note that the post that followed this has subsequently been deleted.
For continuity please note that the post that followed this has subsequently been deleted.
Last edited by OUAQUKGF Ops; 11th Jan 2014 at 21:14.
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Hotel Gypsy
Posts: 2,821
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So what? There is no law saying that you have to follow the most direct route. I could tell you about a 6 and a bit hour session I did where the straight line distance was a little over 20nm.