PQ17
Back to Topic....somewhat.
This link makes for some interesting reading as it is a concise history of the Russian Convoys....and reminds one of the dangers and losses that occurred on those voyages.
Riding to War in a Heavy Cruiser or Battleship is one thing....but the thought of being on an Vessel loaded down with Munitions, Explosives, or Gasoline just does not bear thinking about.
Russian Convoys, 1941-1945
As to PQ-17 losses.....some 173 Merchant Sailors were killed.....not a single Casualty aboard any Navy Vessel incurred defending the Convoy. That is the most telling Statistic in my estimation.
This link makes for some interesting reading as it is a concise history of the Russian Convoys....and reminds one of the dangers and losses that occurred on those voyages.
Riding to War in a Heavy Cruiser or Battleship is one thing....but the thought of being on an Vessel loaded down with Munitions, Explosives, or Gasoline just does not bear thinking about.
Russian Convoys, 1941-1945
As to PQ-17 losses.....some 173 Merchant Sailors were killed.....not a single Casualty aboard any Navy Vessel incurred defending the Convoy. That is the most telling Statistic in my estimation.
Last edited by SASless; 7th Jan 2014 at 13:07.
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At the risk of more thread drift I feel I must put the record straight on this comment. With the 1953 London Debt Agreement, only about 15% of the Marshall plan funding to England had to be repaid. The rest was converted into grants with no repayment needed.
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A merchant ship of the time might have had a crew of 40 or more. That suggests near 2000 seamen on 24 ships. I am sure the survivors stories would be fascinating too.
A far larger but unknown number of Russians would have died for want of the supplies that went to the bottom of the sea, instead of into their hands. Dreadful though the loss of sailors' lives was, the survival rate based on PN's rule of thumb is truly impressive.
Presumably an escort would have been despatched if possible to look for them when they were in convoy, but once scattered they were truly on their own. Did the bulk of them make landfall in lifeboats? JC spoke of many ending up on the bleak foreshore of Novaya Zemyla, fighting off the bitter cold by burning driftwood. As you say, PN, fascinating and terrible stories to be told.
Presumably an escort would have been despatched if possible to look for them when they were in convoy, but once scattered they were truly on their own. Did the bulk of them make landfall in lifeboats? JC spoke of many ending up on the bleak foreshore of Novaya Zemyla, fighting off the bitter cold by burning driftwood. As you say, PN, fascinating and terrible stories to be told.
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generally escorts were not detailed to leave the convoy and look for survivors - too few escorts to start with - on some convoys there were trawlers along to
pick up survivors but they also had a fairly awful casualty rate in their own right
pick up survivors but they also had a fairly awful casualty rate in their own right
One figure given for Ship losses was 9% overall for the Russian Convoys....including both Merchant and Naval Vessels. Quite a few convoys made it without losing a ship or only a few.
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There is an excellent book about this convoy by Godfrey Winn. Long out of print but worth searching for.
Winn was a civilian newspaper journalist who sailed in HMS Pozarica - a former merchant ship converted to an anti-aircraft cruiser armed with 8 x 4-inch AA guns.
This ship, too, arrived in Novaya Zemlya, after the scattering, accompanied by at least one merchant vessel found en route.
Re rescuing of survivors, I seem to remember PQ17 was accompanied by two or three dedicated rescue ships, but I think at least one was itself lost.
Winn was a civilian newspaper journalist who sailed in HMS Pozarica - a former merchant ship converted to an anti-aircraft cruiser armed with 8 x 4-inch AA guns.
This ship, too, arrived in Novaya Zemlya, after the scattering, accompanied by at least one merchant vessel found en route.
Re rescuing of survivors, I seem to remember PQ17 was accompanied by two or three dedicated rescue ships, but I think at least one was itself lost.
I have a copy of "The Destruction of PQ.17" by David Irving laying on my Desk.
Printed in 1968....Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 68-25749.
Very well written account.
Printed in 1968....Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 68-25749.
Very well written account.
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Pontius .... the answer to all of your questions ref. would Germany have attacked France etc.Maybe,maybe not.
P.s. Your Father/ Grandfather wasn't a student at Oxford during the Thirties was he?
P.s. Your Father/ Grandfather wasn't a student at Oxford during the Thirties was he?
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The Royal Navy has two Swordfish, both of which should be flying this year, but only if enough money is raised to keep them in the air. If you can help, please go to www.fnht.co.uk
Thanks
Thanks
Gentleman Aviator
There is an excellent book about this convoy by Godfrey Winn. Long out of print but worth searching for.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
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Pontius ... "he was Merchant Navy", then he has my admiration.
My Brother was merchant navy as well but happily after hostilities ceased.He always reckoned that percentage wise their losses were the highest of all services. He may have been slightly biased, can anyone confirm or deny ?
P.s. Ref. my question... no disrespect was intended toward any relative of yours.I asked the question because of the pre war debate at the Oxford university about fighting for one's country etc.
I was reminded of this because of what I perceived to be a questioning of the causes of the 2nd. World War and some on this blog seeming to blame the British, and to a lesser extent the French, for causing it.
My Brother was merchant navy as well but happily after hostilities ceased.He always reckoned that percentage wise their losses were the highest of all services. He may have been slightly biased, can anyone confirm or deny ?
P.s. Ref. my question... no disrespect was intended toward any relative of yours.I asked the question because of the pre war debate at the Oxford university about fighting for one's country etc.
I was reminded of this because of what I perceived to be a questioning of the causes of the 2nd. World War and some on this blog seeming to blame the British, and to a lesser extent the French, for causing it.
Wikki states that in WWII, German U-boats sank nearly 14.7M tons of Allied shipping (2828 ships). UK total tonnage lost amounted to 11.7M tons (54% of the total MN fleet at outbreak). 32000 MN lives lost in convoy in WWII. Wherever that stands in the pecking order of sacrifice, it was prodigious, but gave us the ability to survive in order to win.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchan...United_Kingdom)
RIP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchan...United_Kingdom)
RIP
My adoptive father, long before I was on the scene, had a place as a MN deck officer cadet in the 20s, but could not take it up after his father died (could not afford the premium), so went into civilian employment ashore. Consequently missed the convoys, but ended up a fireman in the London blitz, and managed to survive that - so I guess the Old Man must have had a charmed life.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Now that is interesting. My grandfather, a builder, had 2 sons. The elder was a purser and my father a seaman. Incidentally the former was the Officers' Mess manager at Leeming during the war!
Interesting site....a good place to start looking at Merchant Navy losses during WWII.
Merchant Navy Losses WWII
Merchant Navy Losses WWII
Gentleman Aviator
but ended up a fireman in the London blitz, and managed to survive that
He was just rebuilding his own business which had failed in the 30s Depression, so wanted to stay in London. Joined the AFS (Auxilliary Fire Service) on the Monday morning after war was declared, so avoiding call-up.
Some of his mates who were (called up) had a far cushier time sweeping up and peeling spuds around Aldershot and similar - so not one of Pop's better decisions.
Later on he tried to become a WOp/AG, but discovered he was too old - at 30! Mind you, had he gone to Bomber Command, I might not be around to write this ...............
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
SASLess, thank you, two ships on which my old man served were subsequently sunk, one just 2 months later.