PQ17
Response to second part of SASless rant
Originally Posted by SASless
Fod......do spare me will you......European Wars were of no obligation to us but we were giving you lot plenty of support well before December 7, 1941 much of it in direct violation of International Law. Our Navy was escorting convoys and fighting U-Boats well before our Declaration of War on the Axis Powers.....remembering Germany and Italy that had not attacked us.
Your Prime Minister went for appeasement and it got you a big War rather than a much smaller one had you stood up to A. Hitler before he built up his War Machine.
Think for a second just how many American War Dead are buried in the UK and Europe......before you go telling the Yanks about how you won the War will you.
Your Prime Minister went for appeasement and it got you a big War rather than a much smaller one had you stood up to A. Hitler before he built up his War Machine.
Think for a second just how many American War Dead are buried in the UK and Europe......before you go telling the Yanks about how you won the War will you.
Originally Posted by FODPlod
Early on in the war? Britain was well into its third year by Dec 1941.
Originally Posted by US National Park Service
In the early years of World War II, the U.S. Navy was ill-prepared for the German U-Boat threat prowling off the Atlantic coast. Merchant ships from various nations running along the eastern seaboard were constantly harassed and sunk by the German submarines. The U.S. Navy had no ships suited to anti-submarine patrol. Britain offered assistance, sending 24 Royal Navy vessels with their British crews to patrol sensitive areas along the East Coast, including the Outer Banks.
One of those British ships, the HMS Bedfordshire, was a trawling vessel that had been converted to anti-submarine duty, and was stationed at Morehead City, N.C. On May 12, 1942, while the Bedfordshire was on patrol, a German torpedo struck the ship and sank it, resulting in the loss of its entire 34-man British crew.
Over the next few days four bodies from the Bedfordshire were discovered on Ocracoke beaches and in the surrounding waters. Citizens of Ocracoke buried the sailors near the village cemetery. A fifth body, an unknown sailor from the Bedfordshire, washed up on Hatteras Island, and was buried next to a British sailor from the merchant vessel San Delfino, torpedoed a year earlier. The U.S. Coast Guard carefully maintains the cemetery at Ocracoke. The graves and cemetery grounds on Hatteras Island are maintained by the National Park Service...
One of those British ships, the HMS Bedfordshire, was a trawling vessel that had been converted to anti-submarine duty, and was stationed at Morehead City, N.C. On May 12, 1942, while the Bedfordshire was on patrol, a German torpedo struck the ship and sank it, resulting in the loss of its entire 34-man British crew.
Over the next few days four bodies from the Bedfordshire were discovered on Ocracoke beaches and in the surrounding waters. Citizens of Ocracoke buried the sailors near the village cemetery. A fifth body, an unknown sailor from the Bedfordshire, washed up on Hatteras Island, and was buried next to a British sailor from the merchant vessel San Delfino, torpedoed a year earlier. The U.S. Coast Guard carefully maintains the cemetery at Ocracoke. The graves and cemetery grounds on Hatteras Island are maintained by the National Park Service...
Last edited by FODPlod; 6th Jan 2014 at 11:47. Reason: to add image.
There is a second pair of Graves in Buxton, NC.....for Two Crew Members of a British Tanker Crew.
British Cemetery on U.S. Soil #2, Buxton, North Carolina
A couple of years ago I posted about these two cemeteries and noted the flag at the Ocracoke site was weather worn and needed replacing but the Annual visit was not going to be for some time and offered to pass one along to the Coast Guardsmen that volunteer to maintain the Cemetery should someone send one to me.
It is a good thing that we still show our Respect to those who were killed.
I would suggest it wasn't Lend Lease that bankrupted the UK but rather the fact you had gotten involved in maintaining an Empire around the World, had invested heavily in the "Southern UK" of Australia, New Zealand, South Africa,Singapore, Hong Kong, and other areas. Then when the Germans got up to their antics.....you had to spend fortunes building up your own forces and defenses. That combined with the costs of fighting a War then losing one Colony after another and the income from those places.....you found yourself in a situation that just would not work.
Throw in the Labour Party and its Progressive Agenda at the end of the War and the devastation it caused.....nope it wasn't Lend Lease that got you.
Remember that at the end of the War....Great Britain owed something like 4.2 Billion Dollars to other Nations (Plural.....more than the USA you notice) and at that time the USA loaned Great Britain 4.2 Billion Dollars at a 2% Interest Rate, and Canada loaned another 1.25 Billion.
When the Empire crashed.....there was bound to be catastrophe for the Economy in the UK....you went from being a Super Power to being just another small Island Nation on the edge of Europe with all that portends.
The Economic downfall of the UK was the collapse of the Empire, having fought both a European War, a War in Asia, and campaigns trying to maintain an Empire, and allowing Socialists to take over government.
British Cemetery on U.S. Soil #2, Buxton, North Carolina
A couple of years ago I posted about these two cemeteries and noted the flag at the Ocracoke site was weather worn and needed replacing but the Annual visit was not going to be for some time and offered to pass one along to the Coast Guardsmen that volunteer to maintain the Cemetery should someone send one to me.
It is a good thing that we still show our Respect to those who were killed.
I would suggest it wasn't Lend Lease that bankrupted the UK but rather the fact you had gotten involved in maintaining an Empire around the World, had invested heavily in the "Southern UK" of Australia, New Zealand, South Africa,Singapore, Hong Kong, and other areas. Then when the Germans got up to their antics.....you had to spend fortunes building up your own forces and defenses. That combined with the costs of fighting a War then losing one Colony after another and the income from those places.....you found yourself in a situation that just would not work.
Throw in the Labour Party and its Progressive Agenda at the end of the War and the devastation it caused.....nope it wasn't Lend Lease that got you.
Remember that at the end of the War....Great Britain owed something like 4.2 Billion Dollars to other Nations (Plural.....more than the USA you notice) and at that time the USA loaned Great Britain 4.2 Billion Dollars at a 2% Interest Rate, and Canada loaned another 1.25 Billion.
When the Empire crashed.....there was bound to be catastrophe for the Economy in the UK....you went from being a Super Power to being just another small Island Nation on the edge of Europe with all that portends.
The Economic downfall of the UK was the collapse of the Empire, having fought both a European War, a War in Asia, and campaigns trying to maintain an Empire, and allowing Socialists to take over government.
Last edited by SASless; 6th Jan 2014 at 13:04.
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Cambridge England
SASless,
the min picture in your last post was of the American cemetery at Madingley just North of Cambridge, England. I am 10 miles away.
https://www.google.co.uk/#q=cambridge+american+cemetery
I have visited many times particularly when hosting US visitors. We are surrounded by USAF bases in the East particularly WWII bombers of the 8th Air Force. One would naturally expect the graves to be airmen. There is surprisingly a large number of US Seamen buried or commemorated there on the walls in the building on the left or the long wall along the front.
when there was a fuss over budget and sequestration last year, locals were up in arms about the cemetery being closed to visitors. I believe it is manned by Federal employees. I am not sure but I don't think it closed. I guess the staff would have turned up without pay.
I enjoyed the TV documentary and following the discussion on this thread. learned quite a bit.
I am not too sure on your take on Empire as I was a student of Engineering not economics of war. Had the US not funded the effort and joined the war we may all have been speaking German this side of the pond. had we not supported Russia would they too have lost? would Hitler then have had the resources to wage war with the US and win? I am suggesting it was in the US interests to join the war without having to wait for Pearl Harbour. I know it is a theme running on several threads on PPRuNe but our [UK] Govt has become a puppet to yours on many global issues. Must thank you for your assistance during the Falklands. Any oil down there we owe you half!
Don't mean to make fun on a serious thread however.
the min picture in your last post was of the American cemetery at Madingley just North of Cambridge, England. I am 10 miles away.
https://www.google.co.uk/#q=cambridge+american+cemetery
I have visited many times particularly when hosting US visitors. We are surrounded by USAF bases in the East particularly WWII bombers of the 8th Air Force. One would naturally expect the graves to be airmen. There is surprisingly a large number of US Seamen buried or commemorated there on the walls in the building on the left or the long wall along the front.
when there was a fuss over budget and sequestration last year, locals were up in arms about the cemetery being closed to visitors. I believe it is manned by Federal employees. I am not sure but I don't think it closed. I guess the staff would have turned up without pay.
I enjoyed the TV documentary and following the discussion on this thread. learned quite a bit.
I am not too sure on your take on Empire as I was a student of Engineering not economics of war. Had the US not funded the effort and joined the war we may all have been speaking German this side of the pond. had we not supported Russia would they too have lost? would Hitler then have had the resources to wage war with the US and win? I am suggesting it was in the US interests to join the war without having to wait for Pearl Harbour. I know it is a theme running on several threads on PPRuNe but our [UK] Govt has become a puppet to yours on many global issues. Must thank you for your assistance during the Falklands. Any oil down there we owe you half!
Don't mean to make fun on a serious thread however.
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had we not supported Russia would they too have lost?
That's one way of looking at it but I often wonder if Russia (perhaps unintentionally) gave us as much help as any other nation by giving Adolf as much grief as they did, at a huge cost to their people, both military and civilian.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
The Russians would have lost more ground but ultimately they would not have lost. Theoretically the Germans should have conquered Leningrad but didn't. Similarly, to get to close to Moscow and fail.
The Russians had moved their centres of production to the east of the Urals. The German supply lines were so stretched to maintain an army in the field in the Soviet winter.
The Russians had moved their centres of production to the east of the Urals. The German supply lines were so stretched to maintain an army in the field in the Soviet winter.
Drag,
During that Shut Down, the National Park Service barricaded our Memorials in Washington DC.....to include the WWII Memorial despite "Honor Flights" of WWII Vets being scheduled.
A couple of Hundred Thousand Veterans and others turned up to remove what we now call "Barrycades" and assisted the WWII Vets to enjoy their visits. It was one of the most enjoyable days I have had. We owe that Generation far more than to see them shut out of their Memorial for partisan politics.
What contact I have had with those who work at the Overseas's Cemeteries and Monuments are as you suggest....People who understand the special places those are.
Our NPS is not filled with that kind of folk it would appear.
Had Hitler listened to his Generals all during the War.....particularly in Russia....perhaps all of Europe and the UK would be speaking German yet today.
Had Hitler not ordered the invasion of Russia , the Germans could have had peace with the Russians. However, once that football got kicked and A. Hitler set out to fight a Two Front War, it was only going to be a matter of time until the Germans were defeated.
It was when General Winter showed up in Russia the first time that Hitler should have realized he could not win.
Too much distance....too long a Supply Line....too much Snow and Cold....and a very tough determined enemy, that upon the USA coming into the War, could afford to trade land and lives for the most precious commodity in War.....Time.
During that Shut Down, the National Park Service barricaded our Memorials in Washington DC.....to include the WWII Memorial despite "Honor Flights" of WWII Vets being scheduled.
A couple of Hundred Thousand Veterans and others turned up to remove what we now call "Barrycades" and assisted the WWII Vets to enjoy their visits. It was one of the most enjoyable days I have had. We owe that Generation far more than to see them shut out of their Memorial for partisan politics.
What contact I have had with those who work at the Overseas's Cemeteries and Monuments are as you suggest....People who understand the special places those are.
Our NPS is not filled with that kind of folk it would appear.
Had Hitler listened to his Generals all during the War.....particularly in Russia....perhaps all of Europe and the UK would be speaking German yet today.
Had Hitler not ordered the invasion of Russia , the Germans could have had peace with the Russians. However, once that football got kicked and A. Hitler set out to fight a Two Front War, it was only going to be a matter of time until the Germans were defeated.
It was when General Winter showed up in Russia the first time that Hitler should have realized he could not win.
Too much distance....too long a Supply Line....too much Snow and Cold....and a very tough determined enemy, that upon the USA coming into the War, could afford to trade land and lives for the most precious commodity in War.....Time.
Last edited by SASless; 6th Jan 2014 at 20:56.
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By the look of it SAS you are having a Russian winter at the moment. keep the old folks warm.
Thanks for the replies. I am finding this thread very thought provoking.
I wish I had been old enough to talk to my granddad and Gt uncles about their wartime experiences.
Thanks for the replies. I am finding this thread very thought provoking.
I wish I had been old enough to talk to my granddad and Gt uncles about their wartime experiences.
A better question.....if the Japanese had not attacked US and British Forces in the Pacific but had instead attacked Russia and possibly in conjunction with German forces, have knocked the Russians out of the War....then turned to the Pacific.....would we all be eating Sushi and Sauerkraut?
Recall the Sorge Spy Ring had discovered the Japanese plan to attack in the Pacific and relayed that information to the Russians....thus allowing them to use forces that would otherwise have been forced to remain deployed in anticipation of a Japanese Attack.
The Russians had already fought the Japanese and had given them a beating....which caused much concern about new attacks by the Japanese and the need to defend against that possibility.
Recall the Sorge Spy Ring had discovered the Japanese plan to attack in the Pacific and relayed that information to the Russians....thus allowing them to use forces that would otherwise have been forced to remain deployed in anticipation of a Japanese Attack.
The Russians had already fought the Japanese and had given them a beating....which caused much concern about new attacks by the Japanese and the need to defend against that possibility.
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SAS .... I don't know whether it was Lend Lease or paying for an Empire that bankrupted Britain, what I do know is that every penny loaned to Britain by America was re-paid. And the British were not included in the Marshall Aid Plan which didn't help either. I think that you will also find that American troops stationed in Australia, for example, were all provisioned at the expense of the Australian Government so I think that would be equally true of G.I's in U.K.
I should add that I am thankful for the efforts of American troops in Europe and their sacrifices in ridding the world of fascism. But at the same time if Britain and the Commonwealth had rolled over in 1940 there is no doubt that most of Europe would have remained under Nazi rule for many years to come and also that America would have continued to let it happen.
I should add that I am thankful for the efforts of American troops in Europe and their sacrifices in ridding the world of fascism. But at the same time if Britain and the Commonwealth had rolled over in 1940 there is no doubt that most of Europe would have remained under Nazi rule for many years to come and also that America would have continued to let it happen.
bosnich71
Afraid you are wrong about the Marshal Plan. The UK was the biggest recipient of aid under the plan receiving twice as much as Germany. The plan announced at Harvard University on the 5th June 1947 was described by Bevin as "a lifeline to a sinking man" and by Churchill as " the greatest act of unselfishness by a great nation ever". Congress was asked for $17 billion but authorised $13Bn of which the UK received approx $3bn. See
BBC - History - British History in depth: The Wasting of Britain's Marshall Aid
Nothing to do with aviation I know but one has a better discussion when one is aware of the facts.
Afraid you are wrong about the Marshal Plan. The UK was the biggest recipient of aid under the plan receiving twice as much as Germany. The plan announced at Harvard University on the 5th June 1947 was described by Bevin as "a lifeline to a sinking man" and by Churchill as " the greatest act of unselfishness by a great nation ever". Congress was asked for $17 billion but authorised $13Bn of which the UK received approx $3bn. See
BBC - History - British History in depth: The Wasting of Britain's Marshall Aid
Nothing to do with aviation I know but one has a better discussion when one is aware of the facts.
Bos.....The question is not whether you stood against the Nazi's in 1940....but should you have done so much sooner and perhaps have avoided the huge War that occurred after the UK and France Declared War on Germany.
The images of Chamberlain waving that piece of Paper in his hand proclaiming "Peace in Our Time".....should still be a reminder of why drawing hard lines and sticking to them is the better policy.
You seem to ignore the fact it was a European War, started by European Nations, over things European.
We were not part of Europe, were not a Commonwealth Country, and owed not one bit of Allegiance to Great Britain. If anything.....we owed a great deal more to the French if you consider the mutual history between the Three Nations.
When you Dance....you pay the Piper.
The images of Chamberlain waving that piece of Paper in his hand proclaiming "Peace in Our Time".....should still be a reminder of why drawing hard lines and sticking to them is the better policy.
You seem to ignore the fact it was a European War, started by European Nations, over things European.
We were not part of Europe, were not a Commonwealth Country, and owed not one bit of Allegiance to Great Britain. If anything.....we owed a great deal more to the French if you consider the mutual history between the Three Nations.
When you Dance....you pay the Piper.
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It is thought in some quarters that Chamberlain was buying time because we weren't ready for war, or rather, less ready then we were in September 1939.
The Russians deserve a lot of credit for their contribution to WW2 but ultimately they and the Germans were the ones that started it. Remember it was the Molotov-von Ribbentrop agreement, splitting up Poland and giving the Russians a free hand in Finland, that effectively triggered the war:
Molotov?Ribbentrop Pact - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Russians deserve a lot of credit for their contribution to WW2 but ultimately they and the Germans were the ones that started it. Remember it was the Molotov-von Ribbentrop agreement, splitting up Poland and giving the Russians a free hand in Finland, that effectively triggered the war:
Molotov?Ribbentrop Pact - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Mickj3 .... so I was wrong ref. Marshall Aid but the fact remains that a good proportion was spent on re-paying 'war debt' so it became a case of give with one hand and take back with the other, from the American viewpoint of course.
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SAS ... many people have the same view of Chamberlain as yourself but there is no doubt that had he not "waved his "piece of paper" and had there been a war with Germany before 1939 a much larger war may well have been avoided but the result would have been a German victory and a much different Europe than did eventuate.
The 2nd. War was not started by France and Britain, as you state, but by the German nation intent on domination of Europe, a Germany who had already invaded various European countries and whose invasion of Poland on the 1st September 1939 resulted in a declaration of war by France and Britain on the 3rd. of the month.
As for " when you dance, you pay the piper', fine if that is what you think but it doesn't sit too well with the view that the Americans saved democracy for all the right reasons.
If you consider that America owes more to France than Britain then fine again just give them a ring next time you get into a bunfight somewhere in the world and we Brits can stay at home.
The 2nd. War was not started by France and Britain, as you state, but by the German nation intent on domination of Europe, a Germany who had already invaded various European countries and whose invasion of Poland on the 1st September 1939 resulted in a declaration of war by France and Britain on the 3rd. of the month.
As for " when you dance, you pay the piper', fine if that is what you think but it doesn't sit too well with the view that the Americans saved democracy for all the right reasons.
If you consider that America owes more to France than Britain then fine again just give them a ring next time you get into a bunfight somewhere in the world and we Brits can stay at home.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
But did we need to declare war on Germany?
Would Germany have started commerce warfare in 1939?
Could we have simply reinforced France?
Would things have settled down?
Would Germany have attacked Denmark and the Netherlands?
Would Germany have attacked France?
Would Germany have started commerce warfare in 1939?
Could we have simply reinforced France?
Would things have settled down?
Would Germany have attacked Denmark and the Netherlands?
Would Germany have attacked France?
Bos.....when our Welfare Man tried to crank up a War in Syria following upon his great successes in Libya and Egypt.....you folks elected to sit it out. So that has already happened.
Mind you I fully agree and appreciate that happening as it caused the Welfare Man to take a walk with Allah in the Rose Garden or whatever that "Come To Jesus Meeting" entailed.
Despite the rush to intervene.....you notice Mum is the word today so it must have been a Phony War he wished to kick off....but did not.
We digress.....my point was to remind you that War extracts a heavy price from any country that gets involved and the fact Great Britain went bankrupt as a result of the War....imagine what it would have cost had we not bankrolled much of the Allied Effort.
At the end of the War we were spending 42% of our GDP on the War on a current basis and had incurred the highest level of Debt in our history.....which has only been matched recently due to the spending habits of our Congress.
We spent ourselves broke doing exactly what Great Britain did.....maintaining much too big a Military and trying to shift to a Socialist Welfare State.
We spent the Soviet Union into the Poor House.....but sadly it is our turn now.
You do recall the French came to our aid when we were serving an eviction notice to you lot.....that is why I see us having a certain amount of allegiance to them.
Granted dealing with DeGaulle during WWII more than paid that debt.
The French are wise in one way....they only get stuck into Wars they think are in their interest. Maybe that is a lesson we in the United States should take.
Mind you I fully agree and appreciate that happening as it caused the Welfare Man to take a walk with Allah in the Rose Garden or whatever that "Come To Jesus Meeting" entailed.
Despite the rush to intervene.....you notice Mum is the word today so it must have been a Phony War he wished to kick off....but did not.
We digress.....my point was to remind you that War extracts a heavy price from any country that gets involved and the fact Great Britain went bankrupt as a result of the War....imagine what it would have cost had we not bankrolled much of the Allied Effort.
At the end of the War we were spending 42% of our GDP on the War on a current basis and had incurred the highest level of Debt in our history.....which has only been matched recently due to the spending habits of our Congress.
We spent ourselves broke doing exactly what Great Britain did.....maintaining much too big a Military and trying to shift to a Socialist Welfare State.
We spent the Soviet Union into the Poor House.....but sadly it is our turn now.
You do recall the French came to our aid when we were serving an eviction notice to you lot.....that is why I see us having a certain amount of allegiance to them.
Granted dealing with DeGaulle during WWII more than paid that debt.
The French are wise in one way....they only get stuck into Wars they think are in their interest. Maybe that is a lesson we in the United States should take.
Gentleman Aviator
Granted dealing with DeGaulle during WWII more than paid that debt
Allegedly (and one hopes really) the then POTUS or Sec of State (Johnson or Rusk? I think it was 1966) asked:
"Does that include the 60 000 buried there .........?"